Buff cybran nerf UEF

[FtXCommando]

Were you around for when T3 subs actually were the strongest naval unit? Those weren't fun games.

I wasn't. As far as I know, those T3 subs also murdered air.

I am also not saying to make them so OP that they eat all other navy for breakfast. What I was trying to say is, that it's o.k. if T3 sub hunter compositions are slightly stronger then other T3 navy compositions mass for mass because the sub hunters threaten bases.

Because making a single unit capable of countering every single naval composition is kind of the definition of making a unit OP and thus turning lategame naval into bland garbage.

The fact that subs can't hit targets on land is really not a good reason to make them stronger than other naval units. If you win navy at that point in the game, then there is nothing someone can really do to actually get back into the water. T3 subs should be capable of being reasonably countered by some naval units of other factions. These units in turn will be capable of being countered by other phim naval units. The cycle goes on and created a game of checks and balances.

[Evan_]

Rhino vs Pillar efficiency stuff

Rhino vs Pillar efficiency stuff

I think the Rhino is fine the way it is, but also OC hit's Rhino's harder than it does Pillars.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Because making a single unit capable of countering every single naval composition is kind of the definition of making a unit OP and thus turning lategame naval into bland garbage.

O.k. then let me rephrase it again:
Make T3 sub hunter compositions counter lategame Frigate/Battleship compositions cost efficiently. Since there really isn't such a thing as the checks and balances you describe in FAF (that sounds like SCII), it effectively means the same thing. But I think that's fine, the check and balance would come from the vulnerability to torp bombers and dead mass when you would rather have a battleship.

T3 navy is really rare already. It costs a ton of mass and ofc it is important how quickly you can capitalise on naval victories. The opponent could react by stalling with some navy and air mix while attacking with drops, attack on land, snipe things, build game enders etc.

[biass]

You gotta remember the placebo effect

remember when everyone was having a sook about loyal rush?

and then """"""conveniently"""""" everyone in ladder was maining cybran (was good times for 2016 aeon main biass)

Make T3 sub hunter compositions counter lategame Frigate/Battleship compositions cost efficiently.

im not sure you understand how much an all-encompassing term "frigate-battleship compositions" really are

subhunters are in a good spot imo, some other obvious weaknesses (sonar) make sera lacking a little

"but sub hunters cannot shoot bases" so? you have the whole pond, you can build whatever you want now

[Iszh]

I am playing seton games on high level now for 10 years nearly and i can remeber those things they have beem maximum annoying but not really op. the nerf was way to extreme. You always have been able to kill them with torp bombers because of pay back in 1 run -> 3k mass for 4k hp. Or simply groundfire them with battleships. Same was for t1 lobo 205 hp. Some players made a witch hunting together and with 5 high rated people have been able to force a change which was really not needed. Maybe ask galacticfear what he was thinking about those subs i played with him those times together already. Really i cannot remember that they have been op it was strong but that was fine. Now you are sinking the harms deep in water so nobody can reach them anymore and this together with insane cheap battleship spam i ve seen cybran crushing very often lately on seton. And please dont start this 1 map show again. For naval stuff t3 there is no other map to proof a unit to be op or not except seton. It is simply the map overplayed and with most naval action on high level.

With the same good right you could take gap and tell scathis was op before nerf because it was really.

[JaggedAppliance]

Just something about the use of stats in directing balance work:

The popularity of factions does reflect the relative strength and the perceived relative strength of the factions to some degree but I don't think it is the only factor or even the most important factor. Making the aim of the balance process creating absolute parity of popularity and win rate between factions would be a huge mistake. As I said already, the strength of factions is not the only factor in popularity, so we would have to overcompensate in balance to achieve parity. I doubt anyone actually desires the scale of changes necessary to bring Aeon and especially Seraphim to the popularity of Cybran and UEF. This concept also tunnel visions on factional balance, which is a problem of FAF balance discussions generally imo. All balance changes will necessarily have some factional balance implication but it is not the only dimension to the changes.

To be clear, the stats are useful and we will use them to judge the factions and the feeling of the community but they can't be elevated above that to where they control our decisions.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

I doubt anyone actually desires the scale of changes necessary to bring Aeon and especially Seraphim to the popularity of Cybran and UEF.

What do you mean by that?

For naval stuff t3 there is no other map to proof a unit to be op or not except seton. It is simply the map overplayed and with most naval action on high level.

This kind of makes sense. Maybe the community on a whole can benefit from that? Maybe you can get the top Setons players who are really constructive at a table and work on (mostly T3) naval balance? From what I know T1 and T2 navy is in an o.k.ish spot right now with just a few units really falling off, so maybe T1 and T2 changes can be very surgical so you do not really touch ladder.

[JaggedAppliance]

I doubt anyone actually desires the scale of changes necessary to bring Aeon and especially Seraphim to the popularity of Cybran and UEF.

What do you mean by that?

I mean you won't see Seraphim become as popular as other factions merely by having the same win rate.

[Mel_Gibson]

The sera T3 sub really should be the single strongest naval unit in the game, counter-able mass efficiently only by air!.

They already are.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Do you know some high level Setons replays showing how to use them? I would like to learn.