T1 submarines price down ?

[CSI]

Hey everyone !

I'm not a very experimented player but I was wondering why these weak attack submarines was more expensive than a frigate ? I mean a Salem can nearly 1v10 them while being 1.4k less expensive in mass and firing with its main weapon at the same time.

What do you think about increasing their HP and/or decreasing the price ?

[keyser]

because they hard counter frigate.
the destroyer is a T2 unit that is design to shoot down subs and deal damage with main canon at distance.

T1 subs aren't useless at all if you can micro them and kill lot of frigate in early stage of the game; but there full potential is only available on water map with naval mexx (this is why i consider all naval map without naval mexx to be bad designed, since we can't use subs at their full power)

btw you can play equilibrium, they design T1 subs in order to beat destroyer. destroyer beat T2 subs, and T2 subs beat T1 subs (and kite them).

[CSI]

Yes they counter frigates, but you can never kill a lot of frigates since it takes almost a min for a sub to get down one frigate, and frigates and cheaper so you have all the time you want to react.
And I disagree about destroyers designed to get down subs, they can defend themselves against subs ok, but they are surface navy first, they are designed to get down other surface things. Subs are designed to get navy down and not any kind of opposite. Their weakness is low HP so they die quickly against others subs and torpedoe bombers and against group of destroyers.

I saw that in equilibrium they have better dps but man they are so expensive for T1..

[keyser]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyer#Torpedo_gunboat

[Ithilis_Quo]

Yes they counter frigates, but you can never kill a lot of frigates since it takes almost a min for a sub to get down one frigate, and frigates and cheaper so you have all the time you want to react.
And I disagree about destroyers designed to get down subs, they can defend themselves against subs ok, but they are surface navy first, they are designed to get down other surface things. Subs are designed to get navy down and not any kind of opposite. Their weakness is low HP so they die quickly against others subs and torpedoe bombers and against group of destroyers.

I saw that in equilibrium they have better dps but man they are so expensive for T1..

They are expensive for deal with pathfining bug that is unfixable + to have concentrate power in single unit (what is generaly buff) what make them very usefull even on lategame.
But even when consider price t1 subs are about 50% better as in curent balance. And destroyers anti-sub weapons are about 50% worse. So at all it work as you asking for. Subs are superior against naval and sub-hunter, as name say, are superior against subs.

[Myxir]

because they hard counter frigate.

following this thought, inties should be more expensive than bombers

i've never understood why t1 navy hasn't been rebalanced by now.
it's heavy frigate spam well into the t3 naval stage, t1 subs are rarely useful at all, unless there are underwater mexies. frigs can run away from subs with little micro, following with the sub is harder (attack command will barely ever catch up, and endangers the sub to getting killed by enemy torps easily).

[Gorton]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyer#Torpedo_gunboat

In real life, destroyers in game are cruisers. Cruisers ingame are some specialised light cruisers.
Frigates are supposed to be destroyers, but they don't have any anti-sub weaponry at all.

[CSI]

Well if we talk about real life a submarine can take down any battleship whith a few torpedoes but it's not my point.

T1 subs have no real use, you can perfectly play without it and that's the problem. Imagine if UEF T3 gunships could 1v10 T2 interceptors while firing on the ground, or if they were cheaper than ASF. No, then why a destroyer can 1v10 T1 subs ? Why frigates are cheaper than subs ? It's exactly the same thing.

[keyser]

because they hard counter frigate.

following this thought, inties should be more expensive than bombers

i've never understood why t1 navy hasn't been rebalanced by now.
it's heavy frigate spam well into the t3 naval stage, t1 subs are rarely useful at all, unless there are underwater mexies. frigs can run away from subs with little micro, following with the sub is harder (attack command will barely ever catch up, and endangers the sub to getting killed by enemy torps easily).

inte can kill static aa, engie, air facto ? btw you can submerge uef/sera/cybran T1 subs and take out some mexx (they have bigger range than frigate).
as I already said it is more about bad water map design than unit design imo.

In real life, destroyers in game are cruisers. Cruisers ingame are some specialised light cruisers.
Frigates are supposed to be destroyers, but they don't have any anti-sub weaponry at all.

it was just to answer to "I disagree about destroyers designed to get down subs"

T1 subs have no real use, you can perfectly play without it and that's the problem. Imagine if UEF T3 gunships could 1v10 T2 interceptors while firing on the ground, or if they were cheaper than ASF. No, then why a destroyer can 1v10 T1 subs ? Why frigates are cheaper than subs ? It's exactly the same thing.

play flooded tabula rasa or tag craftious maximus without T1 subs, gonna see if they are that much useless

[Farmsletje]

Or any of the other adaptive maps with water, cause almost all of them have underwater mexes.