3660 Beta opinion

[Apofenas]

Hello.

Regen.First of all i like that Zock gave us T2/T3 regen back and moved combat upgrades to earlier stages of game.

Even thought Zock reduced regen nerf so it doesn't make combat upgrades obselite, i still don't think this is nesessary change. Althought i understand the logic that Tech upgrades shouldn't be used for combat as effectively. So i'll suggest it again: implement Nomad feature so T2 adds +10 constant regen + additional 10 only out of combat but standard +20 hp/sec for cybran.

Combat upgrades.Now i'm worried about one thing - Cybran. The Cybran ACU is simple formality against fully equiped combat ACU. You won't stop that ACU unless you put t2 PDs or make snipe.

This is why i suggest to give cybran torp upgrade a land usage:
-Speed 1.7->2.0

This speed boost wouldn't affect the game play a lot exept let you keep your ACU out of enemy vision range. Ofc i don't believe someone would bother about 0.3 speed in cost of 1500 mass. So imagine if torps on cybran com could transform to direct fire weapon like Wagner, or AA like Monkeylord, or to MML style weapon to break t2 pds from range with ACU himself.

HP reduction. I'd like to add extremely valuable one eco unit to that list. Mass storages. Right now mass storage has absurd 1600 Hp. That's even more than Pillar. If you go for raid or snipe, you will never touch this building because that's too much time wasted for no real reason.

I suggest to change them next way:

Cybran: 1600 HP-> 500 HP
+1 hp/sec
Aeon/Sera 1600 HP-> 600 HP
UEF: 1600 HP-> 700 HP

This way even if you don't kill a t2 mex you still damage enemy eco. Or you can just go for storage itself if you aren't sure you would kill a mass extractor in time.

[Zock]

Hi, thanks for the feedback!

Even thought Zock reduced regen nerf so it doesn't make combat upgrades obselite, i still don't think this is nesessary change. Althought i understand the logic that Tech upgrades shouldn't be used for combat as effectively. So i'll suggest it again: implement Nomad feature so T2 adds +10 constant regen + additional 10 only out of combat but standard +20 hp/sec for cybran.

I would not do that for two reasons:

a) The regen nerf is not only done to prevent combat effectiveness, but also to allow to re-engage on damaged ACUs after failed attacks more. Out of combat regen would remove this (though its already weakened by adding regen back now)

b) If you define out of combat as not shooting at something, you will technically be "out of combat" most of the time, even while playing offensive. This change would generally help t2 upgrades being used defensive much more than offensive, which is rather the opposite of the other purpose (nerf the power of defensively used t2 that leads to shutting down aggressive options in teamgames)

Combat upgrades.Now i'm worried about one thing - Cybran. The Cybran ACU is simple formality against fully equiped combat ACU. You won't stop that ACU unless you put t2 PDs or make snipe.

This is why i suggest to give cybran torp upgrade a land usage:
-Speed 1.7->2.0

I agree with being worried about cybran! I am too, and was going to look closely at the new ACUs and especially cybran one, since they don't have any new cheap upgrade, on top of their already existing weaknesses (low hp and no gun+t2).

I'm not sure if 0.3 speed on a rather expensive upgrade would be worth it, and a torpedo upgrade giving speed on land is kinda strange too..i was considering to give cybran t2 (and also gun) the extra +500 (or even more) hp that they originally had over the other t2 upgrades back. But i wanted to wait and see if its necessary, as the cybran ACU being weaker than others is in my opinion a fair tradeoff for all their advantages - as long as its not too much. Other suggestions are welcome too though, but we have to see if it's really a problem or not before changing anything. Another idea was to give the 10 regen that got removed from t2 to stealth instead.

HP reduction. I'd like to add extremely valuable one eco unit to that list. Mass storages.

Yes, we can do that! I'll add it to the next upgrade, just with 760 hp for uef, that way they'll (usually) survive one more t1 bomber than other factions and the hp advantage can have more practical meaning.

[Apofenas]

I agree with being worried about cybran! I am too, and was going to look closely at the new ACUs and especially cybran one, since they don't have any new cheap upgrade, on top of their already existing weaknesses (low hp and no gun+t2).

I'm not sure if 0.3 speed on a rather expensive upgrade would be worth it, and a torpedo upgrade giving speed on land is kinda strange too..i was considering to give cybran t2 (and also gun) the extra +500 (or even more) hp that they originally had over the other t2 upgrades back. But i wanted to wait and see if its necessary, as the cybran ACU being weaker than others is in my opinion a fair tradeoff for all their advantages - as long as its not too much. Other suggestions are welcome too though, but we have to see if it's really a problem or not before changing anything.

May be 0.1 speed on stealth upgrade than? The aim for that is to be just a little bit faster than enemy ACU so you could get away to "blind spot" if you made a mistake and got in vision range.

As for torp ugrade, i originally wanted to suggest a simple hoplite style missiles as secondary weapon on land. So instead of being tankier, the ACU could deal more damage to other ACUs, while avoiding it itself. But, well if you even go for such change, the ML-style 80 dps AA or anti-t2 pd weapon integrated into ACU sound awesome.

Spoiler: show

Speed boost for torp upgrade could make sence due to speed of most naval units. 1.7 speed is just slow for underwater unit in this game. I believe Megalith has underwater speed multiplier just for that reason.

[PsychoBoB]

Hi, my first impression is ok. Just a few new things to consider but nothing dramatically (from my average joe point of view!)

But i have one demand belonging to Aeon ACU shield: why got just the first update adjusted? This is the chance to bring in a nearly never used ACU upgrade: the advanced shield! The second one is so expensive that it is even in the late game not worth to build it. So could you plz make it a bit weaker and cheaper to bring it at least in the midgame? What do you think?

[Zock]

But i have one demand belonging to Aeon ACU shield: why got just the first update adjusted? This is the chance to bring in a nearly never used ACU upgrade: the advanced shield! The second one is so expensive that it is even in the late game not worth to build it. So could you plz make it a bit weaker and cheaper to bring it at least in the midgame? What do you think?

Its already planned to be changed in the next update!

[JoonasTo]

You could just make ACUs capable of repairing themselves when they are not shooting or building. T2 com with it's buildpower repairs another ACU decently fast. Why not fix itself?

[snuffles]

But i have one demand belonging to Aeon ACU shield: why got just the first update adjusted? This is the chance to bring in a nearly never used ACU upgrade: the advanced shield! The second one is so expensive that it is even in the late game not worth to build it. So could you plz make it a bit weaker and cheaper to bring it at least in the midgame? What do you think?

Its already planned to be changed in the next update!

Considering this change, documented here [http://content.faforever.com/patchnotes/3660.html#aeoncom] could this be a typo?

Personal Shield (29KHP down to 8KHP)

Spoiler: show

Shield = {
BuildCostEnergy = 35000,
BuildCostMass = 1000,
BuildTime = 1000,
Icon = 'ptsg',
ImpactEffects = 'AeonShieldHit01',
MaintenanceConsumptionPerSecondEnergy = 150,
Name = '<LOC enhancements_0014>Personal Shield Generator',
OwnerShieldMesh = '/units/ual0001/ual0001_phaseshield_mesh',
PersonalShield = true,
RegenAssistMult = 10,
ShieldEnergyDrainRechargeTime = 5,
ShieldMaxHealth = 8000,
ShieldRechargeTime = 65,
ShieldRegenRate = 30,
ShieldRegenStartTime = 1,
ShowBones = {
'Back_Upgrade',
},
Slot = 'Back',
UpgradeUnitAmbientBones = {
'UAL0001',
},
UpgradeEffectBones = {
'Back_Upgrade',
'Left_Arm_B01',
'Right_Arm_B01',
},
},

Heavy Personal Shield (44KHP to 29KHP)

Spoiler: show

ShieldHeavy = {
BuildCostEnergy = 93750,
BuildCostMass = 1500,
BuildTime = 1750,
Icon = 'phtsg',
ImpactEffects = 'AeonShieldHit01',
MaintenanceConsumptionPerSecondEnergy = 250,
Name = '<LOC enhancements_0015>Heavy Personal Shield Generator',
OwnerShieldMesh = '/units/ual0001/ual0001_phaseshield_mesh',
PersonalShield = true,
Prerequisite = 'Shield',
ShieldEnergyDrainRechargeTime = 5,
ShieldMaxHealth = 29000,
ShieldRechargeTime = 160,
ShieldRegenRate = 37,
ShieldRegenStartTime = 1,
ShowBones = {
'Back_Upgrade',
},

Blueprint Source: https://github.com/FAForever/fa/blob/26d74fe1be44f1bded23cce529c5d6eaedd6535f/units/UAL0001/UAL0001_unit.bp
also https://github.com/FAForever/fa/commit/26d74fe1be44f1bded23cce529c5d6eaedd6535f

I don't understand the logic applied to this balance change, taking into account the Aeon racial perks.
The UEF Commander's Personal Shield is 24KHP, and the Shield Generator Field is 36KHP, unchanged.

[JoonasTo]

That is to counteract the nerfed t2 and t3 suit. Now aeon has a decent t1/early t2 phase survivability upgrade.
The second shield was nerfed to be in line with the old aeon first shield, which was a t2/early t3 phase upgrade.
So now aeon has t1 to early t3 survivability upgrades while before it had t2 into early t4 phase upgrade.

Basically a shift from lategame(that was very rarely used, because it was so risky) to early game(when acu is in the frontline most of the time). Same logic was applied to the seraphim nano and UEF nano, albeit uef nano is not nearly as strong as sera or aeon options.

Midgame combat acus are now:
Aeon with double gun and shield
Sera with nano, gun and t2
UEF with gun, nano/t2
Cybran with gun and stealth

Lategame:
Aeon with sensor, double shield and gun range
Sera with double nano, and double gun
UEF with Gun, t3, shield
Cybran just hides
(technically lategame but really just super lategame cloak+mazer+gun/t3, which is useless because everyone has omni+t3 spyplanes and exps)

[snuffles]

That change alone makes no sense as it pulls one race too far below the median line of capability - a little is OK, but that's a protective ability that's too strong at T1/2, and too weak at T3/4.

[lebensnebel]

Regarding the RAS changes, are these values for RAS+ARAS?