Titans: For Sparta!!

[KeyBlue]

So i had a dream/daydream/hallucination a couple of days ago about titans. Probably induced by the recent lack of titan balance talk, due to Zock balance drama. I ain't complaining, some fresh drama is good once in awhile. Go Zock!

But i couldn't stop thinking about it and decided to act upon it and made a small mod showing the changes and some test replays.

The idea: Make titans a melee strike force. Short range + high dps.
So what i changed is this:

• rateOfFire = 6 (instead of 3, so double dps)
• maxRange = 15 (loss of 5 range)

I wanted to test it, but didn't know what is good testing practice ( no sticky post in balance discussion forum that tells me how to test my idea)

I did 4 comparison tests (see replays):

• Mass equivalent Titan vs kiting T3 main bots (so 2 vs harby and othuum and 3 vs percy and brick)
  
  No mod = all bots win
  With mod = both percy and brick are in trouble and die with slight micro
  
• Dropped Mass equivalent Titan vs T3 main bots (so 2 vs harby and othuum and 3 vs percy and brick)
  
  No mod = bots win except percy (brick draw)
  With mod = titans win except vs othuum
  
• 10 Titan vs 25 pillars (little more than mass equivalent in pillars)
  
  No mod = pillars win with 7 remaining
  With mod = titans win with 6 remaining
  
• 10 Titan vs 42 pillars (25 + cost of T3 HQ in units (=17pillars))
  
  No mod = pillars win with 32 remaining
  With mod = pillars win with 31 remaining
  

So what one could conclude from this horrible testing is that they kick ass vs lower tech but in the long run aren't sustainable as main force since range is king in the end.
These numbers are ofcourse just for quick testing for the viability of the idea. More testing required for better balancing.

+point: Titans need to go close range so they will definetly come in contact with loyalist EMP. So loyalist should counter them quite nicely?
(too tired to also test Titan vs Loyalist)



If you want to do the tests i did, but with some variation, you can use the following textfile in the zip to copy paste the units into the game.

[Hawkei]

Terrible idea. We have already established that the Titan's lack of range is it's biggest weakness against T1, and T2 tanks and also against the light T3 bots... You can give the unit whatever DPS you want, but, it will do no good. Because none of those Titans will ever get within range to fire.

I have already mod tested this and can say that increasing range to 23, and turret yaw to 190 degrees/s will bring the Titan into a useful position balance wise - as these figures give parity with the T2 tank, and the increased turret yaw is necessary for the turrets to keep pace with the unit's higher turn rates. Therefore allowing it to do close in micro to good effect without 'derping' about and wasting DPS.

The more radical a change is the more likely it is to have unintended consequences. Hence, preserving the meta-game and minimising the impact of unintended consequences. When it comes to effective balance changes the simple truth is that less is more. That is why I don't like this idea.

[KeyBlue]

Well i mean my suggested change completely wrecked pillar in similar mass numbers, so its very strong indeed.
Not sure how to test it properly to see its real effective power, like I mentioned.

Instead of padding it a little with some extra range, i thought to make it a support unit, very UEF like.

• You put them inside your old army so they share the initial alpha when engaging and then they start killing shit when coming close.
• You put one next to your percy/fatboy, so they are less vulnerable to become surrounded by lower tech (surround == come into titan range)
• Drop them since higher dps makes them better against buildings, possibility to counter drop with your drop.

If it is too radical for standard, maybe Equilibrium worthy then?

[IceDreamer]

Dunno how you reach that conclusion Hawkei. This proves what I've been saying for yonks, that range is only one way to buff the Titan, and IMO is the worst one (We don't want to take it any closer in design to the Loyalist). Clearly, even with impressively crappy range, enough DPS makes it so suddenly the Titan is fighting with bigger boys fairly well.

IMO a middle ground between the current situation and this mod is what's needed. Don't nerf the range, but don't buff it either. Instead, a dramatic increase in DPS and Movespeed, as well as a bit of fiddling with the shield (Less shield HP, quicker recharge time, so that except against overwhelming forces the shield will usually come online before the base HP is killed), and I promise you we'd have a formidable Titan on our hands.

TLDR: A range buff is not the only answer

[Hawkei]

(We don't want to take it any closer in design to the Loyalist).

Why not? You have here two units at the same tech level, with identical cost, and fulfilling similar roles. It should therefore make sense that they would rather resemble each other in essential statistics. One might argue precisely the same thing about Pillars and Rhinos - they of course have different DPS values, with different HP values, and different firing cycles. But when it comes to combat effectiveness they are somewhat equivalent, and when it comes to range they are identical.

... and it is not hard to see why. Range is such a critical factor because it has a force multiplying effect. With the addition of superior numbers with recursive engagements, and reach critical mass, it has a steamrolling effect.

When one compares the DPS and HP values of the Titan and Loyalist, one should discover that they are about even. With the Titan possessing more combined HP (with the added benefit of shield regen) and the Loyalist compensating for it's lower HP with a higher DPS... Both of which seem to match the "flavour" of each respective faction.

Now as to why I put forward those balance suggestions that I did (make range = 23 and turret yaw = 190 degrees/s) one must consider what the unit is supposed to be doing and what it needs to do that effectively... By targeting these things directly we can fix the balance issue with a minimum of change. Thereby minimising the potential for unintended consequences do to excessive balance changes.

***

However, you seem fixated on the range buff and not the turret yaw. As I would actually argue that the turret yaw is even more important. Because, if you watch replays of Titans which are microed in close you will notice that they stop firing whenever they are turning away from their target - and the reason being that the turret yaw is slower than the unit turn rate... Meaning that the Titan actually looses DPS when microed. So increasing yaw actually works out to be an indirect DPS buff. It makes the unit more dynamic, and actually allows it to do in close micro. Which is what it is really meant for.

[IceDreamer]

Why not? Why. Your comparison of Pillar and Rhino is great, because the two units are incredibly different yet perform similarly mass for mass. In that case, instead of range, the difference is cost. If you pretend for a moment that the Pillar had the same stats but cost the same as the Rhino right now, making it UP, I promise you that the majority of people would be fighting for it to get a big HP buff and a damage buff "To match the Rhino", instead of taking a step back, looking at the big picture, and going "Hmm. Actually, we don't NEED to take it any closer to the Rhino in any way other than overall effectiveness. That could be done by nerfing the cost instead of buffing stats!"

You see? One should aim to avoid copying design decisions wherever possible, and instead focus on overall effect. I'd argue that increasing Titan range just makes it, like the Loyalist, "Another fast assault bot". The UEF has the Percival. It's sad but true that they don't need another fully combat-capable unit. They don't need a Loyalist. They need something similar in overall effect on the game to a Loyalist, but not a Loyalist.

I'll also point out that the Loyalist/Titan comparison you made, where Loyalist makes up for less HP with more DPS, is flawed. Loyalists have significantly more DPS, the best TMD in the game, and an almost unfairly amazing stun ability, all for an extremely small amount less HP. The Titan loses out on all that, gains a small amount of HP, and that's it. The personal shield is irrelevant. It doesn't regen while under attack, drains E all the time such that large Titan armies cost a significant E drain, and doesn't recharge fast enough to ever be very useful (The base HP is so low relative to incoming T3 DPS that the shield only re-activates when the Titan vastly outclasses the force it just ran into). This is an issue for all non-ACU personal shields, and it's one I intend to address at some point. On top of all of that, it has less range. While range is the biggest single factor in the Titan's lack of combat ability, it is by no means a magic bullet.

Increased range is one way to buff Titans. My proposal is another. There are many, many other ways we could achieve power parity.

I just think that where faction diversity can be maintained or increased, it should be, and where strategic depth can be increased with a new option (In this case a dedicated T3 Raider), it also should be.

***
Yeah we can probably increase Yaw regardless

[KeyBlue]

Terrible idea. We have already established that the Titan's lack of range is it's biggest weakness against T1, and T2 tanks and also against the light T3 bots... You can give the unit whatever DPS you want, but, it will do no good. Because none of those Titans will ever get within range to fire.

However, you seem fixated on the range buff

It's quite funny that it was actually you that fixated on range when cracking down this idea.

Don't really remember reading about the yaw increase in any, but it has nothing to do with the suggested idea.
(It can be added regardless of increase or decrease of range and dps.)

[RealityCheck]

How about making the titan explode when killed in such a way that it leaves very little or no reclaim. This can probably turn it into a reckless assault bot that attacks a base in groups of 10-20, causes damage and the defender doesn't get reclaim afterwards as a compensation. Maybe the titan will be actually useful like this? And such a use of the unit seems diverse enough.
It doesn't need range if its goal is to reach the enemy base quickly.

"Aah, titans approaching again, kill them fast!!"

[IceDreamer]

How about making the titan explode when killed in such a way that it leaves very little or no reclaim. This can probably turn it into a reckless assault bot that attacks a base in groups of 10-20, causes damage and the defender doesn't get reclaim afterwards as a compensation. Maybe the titan will be actually useful like this? And such a use of the unit seems diverse enough.
It doesn't need range if its goal is to reach the enemy base quickly.

"Aah, titans approaching again, kill them fast!!"

Sounds like a higher HP Firebeetle which uses guns rather than an explosion to deal its damage. Doesn't fit the UEF design philosophy, doesn't fit the Titan's design (Personal shield insinuates a desired survivability, not a suicide unit), and is IMO a very poor design choice for this unit. I'm sorry mate, got to be honest.

Additionally, I have to say it again: The UEF have the Percival for attacking things head on. They just don't need another unit to attack bases head on in a different manner. They need something new.

[JenZor]

First things first: I'm just a noob and are not allowed to have a opinion about balancing ...

They need something new

Anybody knows the "Goliath" from some Blackops Mod? A T4 Assault Bot able to transform into some kind of static fire Position.
Would like to transform them into mini Goliath (name is matching already ). Give it the toggle option to be a static fire base, increasing shield, fire power and HP a little as long it remains "static", decrease it while moving.

Would match the "philosophy" of UEF way more i guess.
Get in, kill T1 and Engis, set up fire base to "defend" against T2 Bots and a decent amount of T2s and be the vanguard of the mighty percies.

Along with the T2 mob shield gen the uef will get a pretty useful mobile fire base. So T2/T3 PD creep gets to the next Level xD


(Enjoy this with some kind of Humor. I know that's a thing never gonna happen but i like the idea at all )


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