My thoughts on the new patch.

[Inquisitor]

I know some of the stuff I am going to talk about could be placed in some other threads but I wanted to put everything together. I give my opinion based on my experience on this game, especially 10x10 maps like Canis, Wonder, Hilly plateau where I tryharded my way to 1900 rating. I am 1500-1600 ladder player aswell.

1)T1 bomber nerf
I can understand that hoverbombing was removed, I really loved microing bombers but a bomber shouldnt be able to behave like that. I cant understand all the other changes to the bombers though.
50% increased mass cost, and almost doubled build time (Seriously, what were you thinking?)
Removing its radar. Now I just dont have to spend resources, build time and attencion in my bomber, but also with an scout. In the current status if you dont know where your target is before hand, it will be a wasted bomber (unless you micro it a lot), especially after the increased cost.
On top of that, t1 movile anti air has been buffed (I really like that), which is also a nerf to the bomber.
Some will say it has also being buffed, I call bs on that. You are really lucky (or your opponent is mentally challenged) if your bomber manages to drop more than 1 bomb.

As far as I know, the main reason for these changes is the first bomber tactic. I find it really funny how its mainly the people who dont know or arent good at hoverbombing who complained the most about it. It was a very risky tactic, tearing apart your initial eco, leaving your base unmicroed (idle engies because being too busy microing the bomber), and leaving you extreamly vulnerable to land raids. And basically, all that was needed to counter it was to make a land scout after your 2nd engineeing and placing it between your base and the enemy.

Changes like this only promotes having 1 standart way of playing the game, reducing the strategic depth of the game, and its exactly this (the strategic depth) what we should promote, because it is what makes this game different.


2)ACU T2 suit nerf
"The regen on t2 and t3 made nano, regen field and shield upgrades often redundant and made t2 too strong in combination with gun and in teamgames (or both)."
Was it Zock who wrote this? If he did I am dissapointed, I thought he knew more about the game.
The reason why shield and nano are redundant is because RAS is the most f***ing OP thing in this game. It doesnt have anything to do with the T2/T3 suits. T3/Shield/RAS is a very common and useful set up for UEF ACUs. If it doesnt happen with other faction is due to the fact that they have to choose between RAS and nano/shield.

"The hp gets reduced from t2 to prevent it making it significantly harder to snipe or attack ACUs, and together with the removal of regen, it can make it more possible ot attack a low health ACU again after a failed attack."
So making ACUs easier to be sniped is a good thing now?

"In general, this change should promote more agressive play in teamgames and reduce the drawn out ACU-Standoffs a little."
WTF?? In teamgames if you want to play offensive with land units YOU HAVE TO MAKE USE OF YOUR ACU, and as soon as you advance a little with your ACU everyone starts building mercies, corsairs, gunships and beetles. If you nerf HP and regen you are discouraging offensive plays, and encouraging playing defensive and ecowhoring (which its already OP af, in addition to being boring and one of the worst thing about this game IMO). Also, less hp and regen mean more mutal knock outs, which already happen too often.

This change is completely garbage, I cant find anything good about it, and it leads the game in the opposite direction where it should be going. At least, I guess I wont have to worry about being sniped by t1 bombers.


3)Scathis and Aeon sensors I dont really care much about these, but I still dont like them.
I agree on nerfing the scathis, the new mass cost seems fine.
Its the range change what bothers me. I think scathis previous range was perfect (for 10x10 maps), you usually had to move it outside your base to make a proper use of it, without placing it in the open. With this range nerf I fear it will become very vulnerable to nukes, because you will have to leave the SMD cover behind, so now in addition to the usual shield and SAMs spam to protect it, we will need a foward SMD to protect it. Thats too much work and resources to make the scathis worth it in most situations.
I think it would be more addecuate to reduce its DPS by adding a reloading time (so the one being target can rebuild some shields and buy some time), or just a damage decrease.

Aeon sensor upgrade was good enough. It was a very cheap way to counter cybran stealth units like MLs. Where other factions have to make an omni (very expensive) or spam t1 air scouts (not cheap and it gives free vet points to the ML) Aeon players only have to get this cheap upgrade to effectively fight a ML, or any other stealthed unit. I dont think it needed any buff.


4)T2 land HQ
I dont know if I agree with the t1 stage being too short, it differs a lot on the map. With the increased cost I wonder if it will be possible to get T2 in maps like Theta Passage, especially when fighting auroras, which their main counters are found in the other races T2 units (also t1 bombers nerf + maa buff, aurora OP?). Thats for ladder.

In teamgames, the mass difference between the ACU T2 suit and the T2 land HQ promotes going for a T2 ACU and adopting a defensive play (not only because producing T2 units will be more expensive, but also becuase of the HP and regen nerf). Again, we shouldnt encourage defensive play, game mechanics like reclaim and walls already makes defending and ecowhoring very powerful.


5)New engineers balance
I am all in for reducing the amount of t1 engies in the game (for lag and pathfinding issues mainly), but, "too easy base defending with the ability to spam the required defence in no time." is a very big downside, which makes this change not worth it. And again, it favors defenders over attackers. I suggest making a new engineer unit, "T2/T3 support engineer", with same mass/build power ratio as t1 engies and low build time, but unable to access T2/T3 structures (or just unable to build anything?). And making the regular T2 and T3 engies not cost effective for assisting stuff.


6)This patch not addressing the actual balance problems
-RAS being stupidly OP (this also goes for the sacus RAS spam).
-T3 air OPness. A nerf for this should consist on a small nerf to ASF stats and a RAS nerf, delaying the T3 air stage.
-Land balance bertween T2 and T3. T3 stage very easy to reach leaving T2 units useless. And of course the loyalist nerf (I would increased their mass cost to 640).
(I have heard rumors about Zock intending the change the balance between T3 and T4 units I am completely against that. I think its in the perfect spot right now, at least for teamgames)
-Seraphim being a very map dependable faction, very powerful in some maps, useless in others. Seraphim needs a T3 land buff, and the T4 bot is currently crap against any microed force (UEF Shield Gun ACU vs T4 Bot is a win for the UEF without losing all its shield, even with range advantage to the T4). I also think they should have the best t2 gunship.

My overall opinion about this patch is bad, altough it contains some good things. I expect some fixes, and better patches in the future.

Enjoy the wall of text.

[Zock]

Hi, thanks for your feedback. It would've been great to read this during the beta phase of the patch, but still, everyone can take a note here how to write a proper criticism, and one that'll be taken into account much more than rants and insults.

I am flying back to Germany tomorrow, I'll write you a detailed response once I'm home and find some time.

[Exotic_Retard]

sooooooooooooooooooooooooo then


1)t1 bomber - not nerfed as much in eq, keeps radar
2)ACU T2 suit nerf - not in equilibirum; enjoy
3)Scathis and Aeon sensors - scathis a properly different unit, aeon sensor is not nerfed along with a price decrease in equilibirum.
4)T2 land HQ - price increase much more modest to 900 mass from 800, not to 1280 in equilibrium
5) (ok here we did the same thing pretty much)
6)this is the best part:
- ras fixed in eq
-t3 air opness fixed in eq
-land balance between t2 and t3 fixed in eq, between t3 and t4 kept almost the same (had to be adjusted since t3 was shifted down)
-seraphim get much more interesting strategies with viable acu upgrades and more versatile units

tldr: every complaint (unless i missed sth) is fixed in "that" balance mod <3

http://equilibrium.x10host.com/changelog/

enjoy your day.

[Morax]

Aside from your first-bomber rant, you have touched upon everything myself and others said, and were ignored.

Good luck and I hope Zock treats your opinions better than he has others. He claims that the patch is only part-way released and it will make "more sense" when everything is out; but I really question why it was done this way. Releasing half-done work is never a good idea.

[Inquisitor]

It would've been great to read this during the beta phase of the patch

I know, but I havent been really active for a few months, and I am still not active. I am not much of a forum dweller neither.

It would be helpful for people who do not participate much in the forum if we had 1 sticked thread with just 1 post in the balanced subforum stating what is being worked on, and what ideas will be implemented. Of course, it should be updated regularly.

I dont have anything against equilibrium balance, but I am usually too lazy too check all the changes (I dont like to play blindly), and mainly,because its already hard enough to play a regular game, a modded one would take even longer to fill

[Evildrew]

Good points Inquisitor, very much in line with my thinking and my posts on the matter of the T1 Bomber nerf (viewtopic.php?f=67&t=13024).

A lot of arguments I have had in my posts and aoelus with so called "pros" is that the T1 bomber is now stronger without citing any analysis or facts to prove it is stronger and it supposedly reduces hover bombing, from what I saw in a reply of Zock vs JaggedAppliance on 22-Aug on Summer Duel, the bomber could hover, turn 90° and drop again, something not possible (or extremely hard to pull off) before. Essentially it is buffed for hover bombers, those it was proclaimed to be against, and the longer reload time means you cant hit several targets in a straight line as before.

I dont know what these guys are thinking but, you cant just come up with an idea, then try it out and say that it is effective just because people have not learned to exploit it yet. Espcially because only T1 MAA T1 bombers were changed which is only one dynamic, there is also T1 bomber to compare vs interceptors, and along the Tech tree vs T2 bombers, T3 Bombers and vs T2 MAA, T1 Static AA, Frigate AA, all navy AA basically considering the mass and build time increase.

For me since 5x5 maps are not real supcom, early bomber shouldnt even be a thing... Actually maybe interceptors should build faster as a way to get air to play a more important role at T1 since 25 seconds for a plane really is about 1/3 the time it takes you to get a T2 factory up so, 3 inties (or 2 bombers) early game is not going to do much difference anyway. Maybe have inties build in 15 secs and bombers in 15-20 seconds would make the game a lot more aggressive and fun at early stage. Also reducing the build time of factories would be a consideration or starting point to make improvements. Increasing build times of troops and next tech level is not the way to prolong a T1 stage when you can only get out a handful of troops anyway at that level.

Also, Thermo is also the only map where aoen sensors are often used and there it is ridiculously OP now....

[KeyBlue]

A lot of arguments I have had in my posts and aoelus with so called "pros" is that the T1 bomber is now stronger without citing any analysis or facts to prove it is stronger

I'm sorry but where is your analysis and facts? I've only heard pure theorycrafting from you.

2 bombers don't do much difference anyway ?
Only a handful of units in T1 ?
We definitly play different games it seems xD.

And don't finish with comments about a map that doesn't even use air, (arguably 1/3 of the game) so it shouldn't even influence the balance.


PS: sorry about talking a little offtopic.

[Evildrew]

bluekey did you read my post i linked to? I didnt think so....

[Mel_Gibson]

bluekey did you read my post i linked to? I didnt think so....

Did you read his name?...

[biass]

why would you read that post tho, right now, its not talking much sense, maybe some more testing first?

i skim it and it goes onto like storages or something?
and i mean, you completely missed turnspeed buff which makes bomber have more overall dps, this is why keyser says the bomber is buffed