T1 Bomber/Mobile AA

[Phelom]

Hi,

1. I liked the idea of the turn speed, that makes t1 bomber really usefull, maniable and .. can be microed well,

2. I dont like a bomber with no radar, this is just a BS, first, it's a bomber.. has no speed, he needs to spot targets before he is spotted, with no radar i dont see what i'm goind to do with it, totally useless, and plz donbt tell me make scout... that's another purpuse... i use bomber because he has radar, i use scout to scout..

3. On top of that, mobile AA is now really usefull, can kill t1 bomber.., so, if my bomber has no radar, and he's killed with one mobile aa, why hell the need to make t1 bomber then ? points 2. and 3. makes it totally useless... and that turn speen make no sens, cant even go away maa


I'll suggest to keep the turn speed, keep the radar, and reduce the maa damage, it's really a lot

if it helps, i did a simple AI game just to see.. and have no need to continue...

http://content.faforever.com/faf/vault/replay_vault/replay.php?id=4982948

I'll try more real game tests..

[NapSpan]

What about bring back radar and decrease mAA health so one pass could kill it? mAA now is more expensive but kill much more stuff, so no need to buff HP.

[Hawkei]

I suspect that the lack of T1 bomber radar will make even more necessary the use of alternative radar sources. Especially Air Scouts. I don't think that this will change it's usage a great deal, because, standard meta consists of using an Air Scout to ID targets before the bomber is sent in. This change just makes it even more necessary. It will also mean that eliminating scouts will have a direct impact on the effectiveness of the air attack.

Finally, the addition of radar to bombers was compensation for a problem which no longer exists. In earlier versions of the game there was an annoying problem where bombers loosing sight of targets resulted in loss of attack orders. As units are now able to maintain attack orders, even through the fog of war, we don't actually need the radar anymore.

[Morax]

I usually don't send a bomber in and find that the radar range it has is sufficient to drop a bomb, so you really need to make one pass unless you micro it with stops, then target. It is less cumbersome to fly scouts around or see targets from land attacks.

[Phelom]

"I use bomber because it has a radar"... yes, i need to spot targets before i attack, sometimes we dont use the scout, because we are busy, or because we havn't attacked yet...
and, as i said, T1 ombers is totally useless without a radar... try it.. i cant micro it without radar in early game..

If the bomber became such a thing that u'll use at min 20 to send about 200 bombers to attack ACU then gl hf.. this is not sup com...
Or maybe u want to make his role to only kill radars ?
Without radar then there is no gameplay, especially at early game, who uses t1 bomber at mid/late game ?

And, why the hell remove thje hoverbombing ? you are ruinning all what makes this game fun/tactic/cool ... continue like this we'll have FAF with SC 2 then...
And plz dont say that because of noobs hates hoverbombing.. they've to go to play SC2 then.. this game is not designed to all ppl... who can't learn as we did then bye bye...
I spend more that a year to learn how the hell to micro my bomber, and how to conter hoverbombing.. now you want to ruin my life ?

Gys, balancing is not removing features.. change a bit and totally change is not the same.. maa is too strong ans makes a lot of dmg..in such a way air is useless ? nahh..
no radar, no hoverbombing, super maa... well, FA is fucked

[NapSpan]

Partially I agree with Phelom, is bad making balance changes with noobs in mind, they are noobs and need to learn, hoverbombing is as easy to counter as is building 2 mAA from the old ones or 1 now, remove hoverbombing? I dont see why this is needed but I dont care at all, its little feature. About removing radar, its a way to encourage the use of T1 scouts and encourage gathering intel, but with this change and now with mAA buffed, we should remove the dead-scout-scouting ability AND make T1 mAA die with one bomber pass, because look like now they are better, they will be able to clear sky with not much problem.
After all I didnt saw any problem with old mAA, they were weak and cheap, easy to cover wide areas with them and enough to hunt bombers but not much more (encouraging air play), I,m afraid if now air game will be less important with new mAA but that is a thing only testing can prove.
I dont have much time, but this is important stuff so Ill try to save some time to test games in the morning before going to work, if any other join me we could do some test games.

[Turinturambar]

with mAA buffed, we should remove the dead-scout-scouting ability AND make T1 mAA die with one bomber pass, because look like now they are better, they will be able to clear sky with not much problem.

wait you want maa to be nerfed? so it maybe costs still 50 mass but dies to one bomberpass???
i dont think thats even close to being smart since your opponent can just gather 2-4 bombers and kill all your maa in one pass and then easily bomb your remaining units. (remember the new bomber is FAR stronger-id say at least 30% more dps...rather more)
current bombers can if left unchecked easily kill entire t1 (t2) armiesif there is not enough aa.

I,m afraid if now air game will be less important with new mAA but that is a thing only testing can prove.

as far as i can say (from testing experience) t1 bombers are far weaker on 5x5 with new maa but get stronger the bigger the map becomes.

sometimes we dont use the scout, because we are busy

not really a reason, since its player fault. Also if you send your bomber somewhere blind it should get shut down very soon anyway, also scouting makes sense since ther may be guarding units next to an engie which you could accidently bomb (radar doesnt help with that one)
vs a normal group of units bombers without radar are same efficient (so they wont just randomly loose their target etc.)

f the bomber became such a thing that u'll use at min 20 to send about 200 bombers to attack ACU

pls dont rage. you could do that allready with old bombers when you had air and insane lead. the main advantage of the new bombers is that they can deal with (moving!) armies way better than the old ones.

super maa

*decent maa

old maa way just (pretty) useles and buffs were definetly needed.
also: many ppl allerady stated that hoverbombing/nic bombermicro is still possible its just harder

[Phelom]

with mAA buffed, we should remove the dead-scout-scouting ability AND make T1 mAA die with one bomber pass, because look like now they are better, they will be able to clear sky with not much problem.

wait you want maa to be nerfed? so it maybe costs still 50 mass but dies to one bomberpass???
i dont think thats even close to being smart since your opponent can just gather 2-4 bombers and kill all your maa in one pass and then easily bomb your remaining units. (remember the new bomber is FAR stronger-id say at least 30% more dps...rather more)
current bombers can if left unchecked easily kill entire t1 (t2) armiesif there is not enough aa.

I,m afraid if now air game will be less important with new mAA but that is a thing only testing can prove.

as far as i can say (from testing experience) t1 bombers are far weaker on 5x5 with new maa but get stronger the bigger the map becomes.

sometimes we dont use the scout, because we are busy

not really a reason, since its player fault. Also if you send your bomber somewhere blind it should get shut down very soon anyway, also scouting makes sense since ther may be guarding units next to an engie which you could accidently bomb (radar doesnt help with that one)
vs a normal group of units bombers without radar are same efficient (so they wont just randomly loose their target etc.)

f the bomber became such a thing that u'll use at min 20 to send about 200 bombers to attack ACU

pls dont rage. you could do that allready with old bombers when you had air and insane lead. the main advantage of the new bombers is that they can deal with (moving!) armies way better than the old ones.

super maa

*decent maa

old maa way just (pretty) useles and buffs were definetly needed.
also: many ppl allerady stated that hoverbombing/nic bombermicro is still possible its just harder

You're sayinbg this because you're in top 50 players ? are you trying to change the game in such a way you pro guys make it funnyer for 1.7 k+ players ?
or for noobs ? so they play like " oh, a bomber , well, make one maa, poor bomber.. let's reclaim, thank you"

I'm an average player, i tryed the t1 bomber and maa, you know what ? i dont feel a balance, it's like i have to train again for a new gamestyle...

and u know, buff A and nerf B means simply killing B

and for the radar question, i use scout to target, but it happends when i change the target.. because i've a raar into my bomber.. and plz, really, a bomber without radar ? lool
it's like a smartphone without WiFi, simply useless...

[Phelom]

I want to be clear, im ok to buff maa (even if it has no sens since i like it how it is right now)... but x2 is not a buff, and 2 old maa is not like a new maa with twice dmg and twice mass and and...
A fatboy is not same like 500 t1 tanks, so this buff is BS imo, so this new maa is not like 2 old ones

As NapSpan says, and it's what i dont understand, is why make the game in such a way noobs wants ? i'm ok to make the game more appreciated by noobs, but dont ruin it.. not like dis !

I also definitelly and categorically disagree the idea of removing radar.. because, tomorrow u'll remove sparky too... lot of noobs has problems with sparky..

One day i was raged because of aeon TMDs, and i raged about auroras in such a way i want to leave this game, you know what ? ppl told me "this is diversity"... i say ok well, i'm a noob, i have to learn...

So, dont confuse Balance, Diversity, Noob, Pro.. shit i'm tired...

[Hawkei]

The change was not made with noobs in mind. Generally speaking the functionality of the unit has greatly increased, as they can now effectively attack move. It means the unit needs to be babysat less and we can get about this game in a much more macro oriented fashion. it will essentially mean that Air play will become more common. Not less.

As for the whole radar issue. What is so hard about building an air scout? why is this so hard for you to do? They cost nothing, and every time you build a bomber in the early game you should be building an air scout immediately after it. I don't see the problem here. All you need to do is tell an air scout to assist the bomber, and then send the bomber on patrol, and now you have a potent area denial weapon.

..and if radar is so difficult for you, why not bite the bullet and make a T2 radar? Seriously, T2 radar is one of the most underused units in this game.