T2 Hover Flak

[IceDreamer]

Serious explanation needed please.

Proposed changes in the mod: Increase speed of Hover Flak (Aeon and Seraphim) from 3 to 3.5.

Reason behind this: I suspect the rationale is to make Hover Flak more able to keep up with the speed of naval warfare. Ships are fast.

My objection: Basically, WTF guys?!!?!?
- 1: In no universe does the phrase "I think mobile flak needs a buff" hold water at all.
- 2: This buffs only 2 of the four factions, and it buff the two which are already strictly better because they have the hover ability in the first place.
- 3: This buffs the flak on land as well as on water, something they seriously do NOT need.
- 4: I don't believe there is any universe where buffing one of the strongest units in the game already can be rationalised by making it slightly easier to control. If we want to make the hovertanks better on water, the correct approach is to have them A: Able to hover and B: Faster than the non-hovers on water, and slower than the non-hovers on land.

[Myxir]

i agree, sera frigate AA is actually not bad, and aeon should rather have an AA boat buff, and neither cybran nor uef can utilize floaty flak at all

[Zock]

See it not as buff, but as less nerf compared to the stats before we nerfs all hover to solve problems with it. The reason the flak speed was nerfed there was only, as single purpose, to keep the equal speed with tanks for convenience. Otherwise they would still have their 3.6 speed. They are strong units, but apart from convenience there was no reason to nerf them.

As the reason for the flak speed change is gone, it's reverted, but it's also needed to revert it for the same reason (same speed as tanks) it was implemented in the first place. The fact that they are also more convenient to use with ships is a nice bonus.

So far for the reasoning. However independent from the power of a unit, convince should come first, and balance can follow. If hover flak is too good, that's not a reason to not buff the speed, but a reason to nerf it in ways that don't make it more annoying to use (cost, damage, whatever).

Now is this the case, is hover flak too good? Maybe, but if it is, it must have been too good all the time before the last nerfs to it, and it would be unrelated to this speed changes. And there haven't been any serious arguments about nerfing it before,its undoubtedly a good unit, and it doesn't need any buff, even though I don't see enough reasons to warrant a nerf either. If other people do, it can be discussed as anything else.

But this is not a real buff, it's a reverted nerf (they are still a bit worse than before now).

Hope this clears things up

[IceDreamer]

No, it doesn't.

T2 Flak are among the strongest units in the game. The Aeon and Seraphim are the strongest of the four, as they have already got higher speed AND hover abilities compared to the other two.

Frankly I don't care what they were before change X and adjustment Y. Right now, there is no reason to buff them in any way that stands up to scrutiny! "Don't think of this as a buff" ?! It IS a buff, doesn't matter what you call it.

Your reasoning is: Need the speed to make controlling mixed Navy easier. Fine. Use the existing code to have them faster over water than over land.

A global buff for two of the strongest units in the game is utterly indefensible, especially when it puts them ahead of their equals in other factions again (God knows why THAT was ever a thing!).

[Morax]

Um, no... please no changes to OP hover units. It's absolutely disgusting as is how annoying it is to deal with zthuees on a map like Roanoake where you have to dedicate apm to stop them with part of your navy. If you lose the ability to use air control because t2 hover flak is right up there with navy then you pretty much are declaring it impossible to beat Sera in that kind of a situation.

[Zock]

If its so impossible, how did people deal with sera all the years before the nerfs to flak, and why did no one complain about it?

[Morax]

If its so impossible, how did people deal with sera all the years before the nerfs to flak, and why did no one complain about it?

Are you telling me you think it's not absurdly easy to win as Sera on Haven Reef, Roanoake, etc etc verse other factions?

And Open Waters which no one plays because it is ridiculous to play anything other than Sera?

[NapSpan]

If its so impossible, how did people deal with sera all the years before the nerfs to flak, and why did no one complain about it?

Are you telling me you think it's not absurdly easy to win as Sera on Haven Reef, Roanoake, etc etc verse other factions?

And Open Waters which no one plays because it is ridiculous to play anything other than Sera?

Well, that is not really true, Open waters can be played with any faction (unless you are Aeon vs UEF, then you are screwed).
About hover flaks, indeed they should be slower because they can go through water AND with shields, buffing their speed is awful idea.

[IceDreamer]

If its so impossible, how did people deal with sera all the years before the nerfs to flak, and why did no one complain about it?

They had bigger fish to fry, fish that have since BEEN fried.

That is not the same as it being OK.

[ZLO_RD]

aside from high noon and haven reef (not 100% about haven reef) i think on other maps you have tools to protect against sera.
frigates, bombers, jesters, t1 tanks, auroras, labs ect.... it is often hard to micro against those but if you do micro you can handle it and harras with same tools that you deflected t1 arty

tho i can't disagree that smart use of single unscouted t1 arty can give really big advantage to sera players, while spamming a ton of them usually does not work so well

(God knows why THAT was ever a thing!).

maybe they didn't want it to run in front of the army? who knows