Submarine Balance

[NapSpan]

Yes let's make T2 subs rape sera destroyers even harder mass for mass. Good call.

We was not talking about prices, just to put stealth in all subs (yes, sera destroyer not count) to make them usefull and maybe nerf destroyer countermeasures to UEF destroyer level.

[Lieutenant Lich]

Did anyone even read my suggestions?

[Hawkei]

...I tested the submarine balance mod and is pretty cool and with it nuke subs are more than nuke silos if you have not-cybran faction.

That's awesome. Can you post the replay? I'd love to watch every replay I can to see how the mod works in practice.

[NapSpan]

...I tested the submarine balance mod and is pretty cool and with it nuke subs are more than nuke silos if you have not-cybran faction.

That's awesome. Can you post the replay? I'd love to watch every replay I can to see how the mod works in practice.

Not really that kind of replay you think,I was testing vs AI but tomorrow after my last exam Ill start hosting games with that mod, I promise.

[Ithilis_Quo]

That's awesome. Can you post the replay? I'd love to watch every replay I can to see how the mod works in practice.

your mod in adjusted version is parth of equilibrium for about year. Its working +-well

[Hawkei]

your mod in adjusted version is parth of equilibrium for about year. Its working +-well

That is really good. Nice to see the ideas are appreciated.

[briang]

Did anyone even read my suggestions?

Yes... they all seem incredibly random and don't serve to complete any objective.

[Hawkei]

So if there are no further issues with the proposed dynamics. What are peoples thoughts on incorporating this into a balance patch?

[Morax]

No one has ever really attempted to address this, and the general result on gameplay is that sea can effectively be controlled by one vessel. The destroyer. Which is dominant in both naval direct fire, shore bombardment, and anti-submarine warfare. It is effectively a "Spam this to win Sea" vessel. Which generally turns naval combat into a one dimensional exercise. With it's only real weakness being air, and this is countered by the cruiser.

destro_vs_frigate .PNG (197.14 KiB) Viewed 3278 times

I have a huge issue with your proposed dynamic and this thread in general for this clause alone.

You stated that you should just "spam destroyers" to win navy when in actuality you are quite wrong. Let's take a look at a map like White Fire where people traditionally spam frigates early on rather destroyers in high-level play. Do you know why they do this? Because you can build 9 frigates, which not only crush a destroyer, but have the ability to take out most of the shoreline mexes for the same cost.

What you need to do is scout and react to your opponent's strategy:

1) If you see the switch to t2, stop any and all sub production and get frigates to fight destros as they are the best counter
2) If you see subs only, get destros and ruin their days
3) If you see a mix of destros and frigates, well, you better get the same or somehow win air and use torp bombers or you're going to feel the hurt

There are some other scenarios at play, too, of course:

1) Eye of the Storm 1v1: it's rather difficult to get t2 navy out with everything else at play, so subs only make sense since there is not much shore-line fire, and you can prevent ACUs taking a dip to regen health.

In my opinion you are lacking some basic tactics and understanding of gameplay to make a real move to change the t1 sub.

As far as I see it, the sub is what it is, and we shouldn't address it at this time unless some other major navy dynamic comes into play.

[Hawkei]

Frigate shoreline bombardment is situational and has a limited window of viability. Which can easily be foiled with T2 PD. The frigate also has a situational application as a direct fire naval combatant. As once a critical mass of destroyers is achieved they can decimate Frigates at standoff distances. As you correctly devised the most potent naval force is indeed going to consist of a combination Destroyers and Frigates - and you also correctly deduced that submarines are obsolete equipment once Destroyers on the field in force.

My opening premise was based on observation that the Destroyer is dominant as:
1. A naval direct fire combatant;
2. A naval anti-submarine combatant; and
3. A naval shore bombardment platform.

Considering that these are the three primary objectives of a naval force would it not be fair to say that this nullifies much of the asymmetry of FA's naval warfare and turns it into a one dimensional contest? Yes I do agree that there are other direct fire options in the higher and lower tech levels which can contest the Destroyers dominance. But would it not be fair to say that it faces no threat from asymmetric force compositions from it's own tech level?

Whilst the objective of the mod was not to challenge the Destroyers combat effectiveness. I did seek to recast it's ASW role as more of a defensive one. With the addition of sonar stealth it is now possible for submarines to actually reach their targets undetected. So this now means they have greater utility as raiding units, and means that some actual effort needs to be put into submarine denial.