Balance of LABs vs. Tanks

[TheKoopa]

This is something that came up in the Titan thread that I kind of feel hasn't been touched much. LABs vs Tanks.

LABs at the moment are at a strange location in the balance. The majority's opinion is that LABs suck and that it's always better to make a tank.

Spoiler: show

inb4 hate, it's just my opinion

While LABs do suck a bit, they don't suck as much as people seem to think they do. LABs can be very powerful tools on most 5x5 maps and 10x10 maps. They are very cheap and effective expansion engineer raiders and are of the utmost importance to build to gain an advantage.

HOWEVER, LABs do need a buff to their damage. Right now, as it stands, you don't even need to micro a tank to kill a LAB that's heavily microed. This should not be so. A microed LAB should be able to beat an un microed tank, with a microed tank being able to kill a LAB very easily.

The case of "why are LABs not built later in the game" is very simple: they require intense micro. Tanks (with the exception of aurora) can just run in with no worries (ofc if you scout and see no defence, less units, no ACU, etc). The case is much the same as building a T2 range bots instead of a T2 tank. However, LABs should never be used as a direct combat unit against anything, as it is now. They are meant for early raiding, not for combat against a tank force greater than 1 or 2 units.

LABs can be improved though, either their damage (with appropriate nerfs etc) or.... a major MAJOR buff.....

Make them prioritise engies.

Spoiler: show

I don't know if this has been done already

This will make micro much much easier and as a result buff their raiding capabilities massively.

[Zeldafanboy]

LABs should have lower range, lower hp, lower cost, lower buildtime, higher speed, and higher dps than tanks

Tanks should have greater range, more hp, higher cost, higher buildtime, lower speed, and lower dps than LABs

[IceDreamer]

LABs should have lower range, lower hp/mass, lower cost, lower buildtime/mass, higher speed, and higher dps/mass than tanks

Tanks should have greater range, more hp/mass, higher cost, higher buildtime/mass, lower speed, and lower dps/mass than LABs

Fixd

[IceDreamer]

Make them prioritise engies.

Spoiler: show

I don't know if this has been done already

Current Aeon LAB priorities. The others are likely identical:

Code: Select all

            TargetPriorities = {
                'SPECIALHIGHPRI',
                'TECH3 MOBILE',
                'TECH2 MOBILE',
                'TECH1 MOBILE',
                'STRUCTURE DEFENSE',
                'SPECIALLOWPRI',
                'ALLUNITS',
            },

basically... lol.

[Ithilis_Quo]

same threat is here. With lot of arguments and solutions...
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=10974


About target priority. Enginer is not best target priority. becasue when you meat lab+ engy and he would micro it and you not, you will shoot enginer but die before you kill it. and all time it would fire on enginer. Here are better targets taht you want to fire before.


1.What you want to fire at first is radar, because radar die after first second if not less, and whiteout radar have more probability to run out, or criple enemy forces.
2. At second its (suprisly) ACU -> becasue ghetto snipe, you are go for acu and not other random units, when labs dont create ghetto then want to avoid acu all time so it dotn cause any down side.
3. T1 mobile, ->T2 mobile -> T3 mobile...

Imho enginer as target priority can cause lot of frustration when want use lab not only as kamikadze mision that kill enginer and die.

[yeager]

Not hating, but things to consider:
Be careful not to make ghetto OP
If labs are too good we will get lab drops, which will be even more potent than arty cause you can't stop it once it has landed. Make of this what you will
Labs aren't supposed to be equal to tanks, also right now a microed lab can beat a thaam or, slightly harder a striker or aurora.
If lab becomes too strong aeon will be able to use them to kick even more butt (I'm not sure how it will affect aeon vs other factions.
How will sera cope? Anti lab tank? Cause right now a single lab can beat 5-15 selens cause turret can't turn. That and thaam is worst against labs cause of fire rate (aurora at least has the range to fire first)
I personally don't see a need to buff the unit, sure there use is very limited, but labs win games. More often than people like to admit

[RoLa]

I wouldn't make LABS stronger. Only decrease build time and add something to make them useful later.

I suggested a dig in mode making them extremly hard to kill.
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=10974#p112444

Some other ideas
- leave 100% mass wreckage,better to defend
- leave 5% mass wreckage, better to atack
- when killed dont give xp at all.
- when killed give also xp to a friendly unit(not lab) nearby. Very strong if mixed with T3 or T4 units.
- fast vet up so a vetted lab army gets almost as strong as t2 level tanks / bots. (mass vise)
- introduce a new t3 land unit: armored hover transport for labs
- parachute, you can drop them out of a flying transport and they dont get damage
- they can build walls
- you can upgrade / switch them to a another specialised weapon like shield breaker, tow, MANPADS

the selen's gun should be fixed to fire while moving

[TheKoopa]

About target priority. Enginer is not best target priority. becasue when you meat lab+ engy and he would micro it and you not, you will shoot enginer but die before you kill it. and all time it would fire on enginer. Here are better targets taht you want to fire before.

LABs are early raiders. In a 1v1:

1) They are almost always across the map in 2-3 minutes, no one uses a LAB to defend an engi, tanks are far better for that.

2) Even if said LAB was by the engi, you can successfully kill the engi and even if the LAB dies, you know there's one coming and can send a tank to the respective side to defend.

3) If you make radar that early in the game you will lose [the game] hardcore

4) Microed LAB should EASILY be able to kill a non-microed LAB, after all instead of microing other things or doing build orders you're putting attention into 1 unit

I believe the best way to buff a LAB is to change the target to prioritise engies first. Instead of having to waste precious seconds on doing an attack order (which then changes if you move the LAB) you don't have to worry about the bot shooting the tank instead of the engi.

This is a major buff because it makes microing easy and its role as an early game raider is much more important now. LABs don't need to be useful in the later game as that's not what they are for.

Like I said above, a tank is a tank and it should always be able to easily kill a LAB (unless it's the case of an un microed tank vs a lab). Tanks are the streamlined front line units, LABs are not and should never be.

Some other ideas
- leave 100% mass wreckage,better to defend
- leave 5% mass wreckage, better to atack
- when killed dont give xp at all.
- when killed give also xp to a friendly unit(not lab) nearby. Very strong if mixed with T3 or T4 units.
- fast vet up so a vetted lab army gets almost as strong as t2 level tanks / bots. (mass vise)
- introduce a new t3 land unit: armored hover transport for labs
- parachute, you can drop them out of a flying transport and they dont get damage
- they can build walls
- you can upgrade / switch them to a another specialised weapon like shield breaker, tow, MANPADS

Can we keep this realistic please.

[manread]

When people talk about changing target priority, would it be possible to have a drop down menu similar to fire select (ie ground fire/hold fire) that changes the target priority?

[Ithilis_Quo]

When people talk about changing target priority, would it be possible to have a drop down menu similar to fire select (ie ground fire/hold fire) that changes the target priority?

already exist dominos target priority mod, that fix all issue with target priority, but for magical reason its still not integrate.

koppa, radar is also mobile scout.
and you have not true, but it doesnt matther. still nothing will happend from any forum threat so you know..