An Observation on T3/T4 Air

[IceDreamer]

We have three primary Air Experimentals. The weakness of them is the ASF, as it should be, but one is definitely more equal than the other two. Since none of them are threatened by any but the most concentrated AA, and have enough DPS to level medium-strong defenses anyway, survivability is limited to the ASF encounter.

Soulripper - Always seems to do the most. Seems to be worth building. Mass - 34,000. HP - 90,000. HP/Mass - 2.65
Ahwassa - Next most useful. Incredibly front-loaded, so unless air control is seriously against you, it will usually do something, even if it dies immediately. Levels T3 AA in one pass, so with Air control is a true game-ender against all but the strongest ground defenses. Mass - 48,000. HP - 52,000. HP/Mass - 1.1
Czar - Almost exclusively referred to as a suicide donut, to the point it's become a running joke. Rarely does work. Requires time hovering over its target tanking fire to do anything, similar to the Soulripper. Does not have advantages of frontloadedness, seriously high AOE, or high speed from the Ahwassa. Mass - 45,000. HP - 58,000. HP/Mass - 1.3

So... The Ahwassa, now that the arguably-exploity bombing of ASFs is gone (Don't argue that here, it's not what this thread is about, and is besides the point), the unit is probably just about usable. Soulripper, too, is just about usable. It has the HP to tank while it deals its damage.

Czar requires time to do damage, like the Soulripper, yet has only the survivability of the Ahwassa. No wonder it's so delicate.

Observation: Despite recent nerfs, T3 Bombers still considered too strong (I think) against T3 AA.
Observation: Despite recent nerfs, ASF spam is still as important and sweeping as ever. Still considered a gameplay failing?

Possible solution to Czar problem, and to a smaller extent, Ahwassa and Soulripper: Buff HP. In the Czar's case it would have to be significant.

Usual counterargument: With buffed HP, how would you ever stop them with AA and not ASF. You'd never be able to without a ridiculous investment of mass and space!

Counterproposal: Significantly buff T3 AA DPS, slightly buff missile-based solutions' MuzzleVelocity and/or missile velocity.

Problem: But that would ruin Air and make attacking bases impossible!

Would it? It would shoot down ASFs even more handily. Doesn't seem like it would be a huge problem, the numbers involved shrug off even hefty AA fire in the short time required to have the fights. You'd have to be more careful of where you engage, sure, but the ASF role of clearing out air-to-ground threats would be undiminished. Even stopping an enemy Air Experimental in their own airspace on the defensive will still be accomplished in one pass.

T3 Bombers are still going to drop their bombs and die. This interaction seems unchanged for the most part, except that forward-placed AA might work now.

Experimentals will be defendable. It will still take a hefty investment, as it should to stop 30-50 thousand mass invested against you, but it will be doable, and those units might get there more reliable, and be used more.

Spy planes would be caught properly by T3 AA.

TL:DR

Experimental Air seems less used because of how delicate it is against ASF (Crucially, how even if you have a far superior ASF force of your own, the enemy can still suicide a smaller number of their own against your Experimental and kill it in one pass before you physically have enough time to kill all their planes), and how countering that with more HP would make T3 AA unable to stop it. Upping both would leave the AA vs Experimental Air relationship as-is (ish), make the Experimentals more usable, and have negligible effect on the rest of the theater.

Czar - Boost to 94,500 HP for HP/Mass - 2.1
Ahwassa - Boost to 62,000 HP for HP/Mass - 1.3
Soulripper - Seems OK as-is.
T3 AA - Buff from 333 to 530 DPS. Missile variants +15% Missile velocity.

[yeager]

Idk, I like how it is currently? Although I agree air t4s are a little too fragile, I'd like a buff to vet, so if you use your exp right it becomes very strong and survivable very fast.

[IceDreamer]

Idk, I like how it is currently? Although I agree air t4s are a little too fragile, I'd like a buff to vet, so if you use your exp right it becomes very strong and survivable very fast.

I see and understand your point, I really do, but the primary concern I had was the Czar, and the problem is that to do it your way, the unit has to sit still for several moments to get that vet. It's simply never going to have a chance to do that, unless you are already in the proper, 100% air-dominant position, in which case that more powerful veterancy is only going to make it even more invincible against T3 AA... :/

[Zeldafanboy]

I would say the Ahwassa is the best one out of them all because it can guarantee at least one bomb, and can fly much faster since it's a plane and not a gunship. It actually has surprisingly powerful AA for a secondary weapon and can fly with ASF behind it, taking shots at them.

Soul Ripper isn't bad but I rarely see it used. I'd rather have a bug's mass worth in strats to be honest.

CZAR is a suicide unit, but I see it often get kills anyways with the laser, and the air crash too.

Again, everything about air revolves around ASF balance at the moment. I would rather nerf ASF than buff T4 air unit health. Ground based AA is struggling as it is.

[yeager]

Idk, I like how it is currently? Although I agree air t4s are a little too fragile, I'd like a buff to vet, so if you use your exp right it becomes very strong and survivable very fast.

I see and understand your point, I really do, but the primary concern I had was the Czar, and the problem is that to do it your way, the unit has to sit still for several moments to get that vet. It's simply never going to have a chance to do that, unless you are already in the proper, 100% air-dominant position, in which case that more powerful veterancy is only going to make it even more invincible against T3 AA... :/

I guess that's very true, I think the increase in muzzle velocity is a good idea, but like Zelda said, why buff everything around asf, just give them a nerf, all in all I'm not sure if it will work, but if you made it i would test it.
[quote="Zeldafanboy"]I would say the Ahwassa is the best one out of them all because it can guarantee at least one bomb, and can fly much faster since it's a plane and not a gunship. It actually has surprisingly powerful AA for a secondary weapon and can fly with ASF behind it, taking shots at them.

Soul Ripper isn't bad but I rarely see it used. I'd rather have a bug's mass worth in strats to be honest.

CZAR is a suicide unit, but I see it often get kills anyways with the laser, and the air crash too.

Again, everything about air revolves around ASF balance at the moment. I would rather nerf ASF than buff T4 air unit health. Ground based AA is struggling as it is.[/quote
But bomber is way more expensive than the others, and has way less health, not to mention its vet is now much harder to get, I think it's the best, but by a small margin. Also in larger games its useless cause of shields. micro makes it like a son - one is great and really helpful, 2 aren't worth much, and 3 isn't worth jack.

[zeroAPM]

Would be possible to force the ASF to keep a certain distance between each other (only if they are of the same player obviously)?
That would mean less concentration of force since what once was a solid pike of mass destruction becomes a much more widespread force that is much more manageable in bite sized chunks.

[Ithilis_Quo]

Czar - Boost to 94,500 HP for HP/Mass - 2.1

from my experienc its not enought. Insta heal can be something that i was not calcul with, but it will still be not enought. Rather as write long reaport why and how, i make a video why its not enought.

czar 150 000hp AA dmg cca 4x better and still destroyed with 60% own mass in asf.

3976593-Liberius_Quo.fafreplay

(11.79 KiB) Downloaded 64 times

[Exotic_Retard]

yeah, 100k hp isnt nearly enough, and on top of that asf in ithilises mod are nerfed from 400dps to 300, so this buff might be in the right direction, but it wont solve the problem.

[Col_Walter_Kurtz]

czar 150 000hp AA dmg cca 4x better and still destroyed with 60% own mass in asf.

The nature of a dedicated counter is that it easily beats the thing it's supposed to kill. I'm not saying that the air experimentals can't use some rebalancing, but you can't rely on eco as the one and only measuring stick for balance. Also, why would you make only a CZAR to kill a swarm of ASF?

In current balance, CZAR and SR are so weak, that even if you win air the chance of getting something done is quite slim. At least on large maps I believe this statement is true. By the time you cross the distance the other side has so much flak, shields and SAM that you are just delivering a nice gift of mass.

Apart from HP or other buffs, you could also make the units faster. Same for gunships. CZAR and SR are basically huge, awkward gunships now that I think of it. More speed goes well with the nature of airunits in general I think.

[yeager]

Beatle I'd increase speed and health, czar I'd increase health had change the gun, I'd give it a (slight) charge up and alpha damage, like in Independence Day, I'd also increase dps/ range of aa. For bomber I'd increase speed if I could, but probs increase hp and aa range