Cybran torpedo on amphibious units

[yeager]

Waters of Isis, ozone, setons (although it takes a little more thought) etc.

Stella maris and open waters are maps where cybran navy is stronger, but not onces you say. You just named maps where you take uef engineer and make battle cruiser rush and slaughter t2 navy.

I don't speak about making super wagner, but about fixing some issues of this game, which are:
-Fix this pathetic ultra useless 3dps weapon, which is basicly the same 50 dps weapon on land;
-make t2, t3, shield, nano, torp ACU incapable of reclaiming/killing infinite amount of wagners under water and dance conga on their bodies;
-force aeon/seraphim to go in water on hover byased maps to make subs to prevent wagner raids the same way as cybran are forced to make frigates;
-Limit ACU+hover pushes by threatening it with ACU+wagner under water;
-Make more use of currently least usefull aeon and seraphim t1 subs;
-Make wagner less usefull on land so rhino wouldn't have a challenge;

This is already calculated and tested in Ithilis's equilibrium mod, where wagners have 10 dps with only 1 projectile every 10 seconds on 20 range, no water vision and less effectiveness on land.

Use your com with torp upgrade for every reason you want Wagner buff and your good. Every issue you just described I encounter and move past easily, cybran navy is freakin great, no need for this buff, maybe if something else was nerfed, but right now cybrans have the most diverse and strong water force, no need for good amphib, and you wouldn't make anyone build subs who was going full hover, they would use torp bomber.
Just cause one unit in the entire freakin cybran navy is bad does not mean it warrant a buff.

[KrogothFTW]

By my calculations, it takes about 4 Wagners to simultaneously defeat a tigershark cost effectively. You only lose one wagner in the process, due to Wagner's higher health. Perhaps an armor type to buff level 1torpedo damage (don't forget torp launchers) against wagners would justify a buff to its effective dps against ships.

[KrogothFTW]

Don't forget about new or casual players though: if there's a weapon, they expect it to work; they don't expect to have to dig into the unit database to find out that its best use is fodder for overwhelming torpedo defenses. In fact maybe a buff to make it split like loa missiles would be a good idea.

[Tremarl]

inb4 t2 rhino spam on navy map, walk rhino over to enemy base under water while enemy tries to scrape together expensive subs that are practically useless against everything but rhino.

[Flamingo]

inb4 t2 rhino spam on navy map, walk rhino over to enemy base under water while enemy tries to scrape together expensive subs that are practically useless against everything but rhino.

People seem to be able to handle Blazes crossing the water. It's already been mentioned but the proposition was to make the Wagner a multi-role unit that performs worse than it currently does on land and better than it currently does in water. I imagine that by T2 you should be capable of gathering enough destroyers and air support to handle that. After all, a Blaze is still weaker than a frigate while costing about the same, if I remember, and what's being suggested is that Wagners should be weaker than T1 subs while still costing about the same.

If you increased Wagner torpedo DPS to 8 you'd beat a sub in a little over 65 seconds while the sub still beats the Wagner in about 40 seconds. It's a good trade for the sub, and destroyers would still beat Wagners as well which is quite relevant because we're talking T2 here. They couldn't even pass torpedo defenses, unlike hover units. Just make the Wagner do less DPS on land and there you go, a multirole unit that's not too stellar on land or water but that has a place thanks to versatility. Similar to the Blaze and Riptide, which both see quite situational use.

[Flamingo]

Why ruin it's land use when there is no reason to increase the torp dps?

I find this balance forum a little strange.

A while ago I proposed changing the chrono dampener and the conclusion drawn by others was that because the dampener is an unreliable piece of trash that makes an ACU sniper bait while knocking out a random slew of units depending on their RoF, it's in a perfect balance position because nobody uses it and if nobody uses it then it's not OP and nothing needs to change.

Then in this thread you've got people arguing that the Wagner shouldn't have any naval potential because the T1 frigate already has naval potential. By the same logic you could argue that Rhinos shouldn't have any land potential because Jesters already do well against enemy tanks, even though the two units serve totally different roles and appear at separate tech tiers.

An amphibious unit that can actually threaten boats a little has a utility that a Rhino doesn't. As the Wagner is, it's a competitor with the Rhino with the novelty that you don't need transports to get it across water. Wagners don't need to have any water capabilities, but it would be nice and would make the Cybran a bit more flexible towards naval threats. Sure, the ACU can also get torpedo launchers, but that's like telling people playing chess to try to take someone's queen with the king: possible but only if your opponent allows it. An ACU is torpedo bomber bait if you're not careful - it's not really something you want to use to temporarily chase off a Governor if you need something for that.

I feel like people are being resistant for the sake of resistance. The Wagner isn't used for much of anything right now because the Rhino is often preferable. Making the unit more amphibious isn't a needed change, but it would be handy. Does anyone have a reason to disagree not involving T1 frigates, using the ACU as a Hail Mary torpedo unit, or "Well then I might have to build subs, or bombers, or destroyers, or torpedo launchers, or something besides zooeys"?

[JaggedAppliance]

No, the wagner is quite useful thanks to its amphibious capabilities and because of its speed. Just because it's amphibious doesn't mean it should be able to compete with naval units. It's a raiding unit primarily but can also stand up well in battle.

[yeager]

the wagner allows you to raid better than other hover counterparts, your destroyer can go on land for a reason, your t2 will be head and shoulders above all others when stealth is fixed, you have best t1 navy, a com with torp upgrade, a great torp bomber, a t3 amphib unit with torp defnece, a god like t2 sub, a nuke sub that can actually be used as a combat unit ( its range forces other units to move in blindly, and right into a swarm of barracudas) and to top it all of you have a stealth able trans, buffing the wagner is stupid, there is 0 need for it

[Apofenas]

Destroyer ability to walk on land is not used in 99% of cases. Other hover raids are generally better since they able to shoot back into navy and can be built on t1, have higher speed on land and take flak with raids. Wagner is better tank, yes, but that's another issue as you can build wagners instead of rhinos on land only map and only benefit for it. However it has completely useless weapon. Useless weapons exist in like 1/4 of units of game incluuding wagners and it's another issues that has to be fixed.

Ithilis fixed most of the things that were mentioned in this topic incluuding cybran t1 navy which you think is too strong. Just watch equilibrium mod or ask him.

[wasdf]

Why does it need to be fixed when the goal of the wagner isn't to be an anti naval unit? shouldn't we just be happy it has that bit of extra dps? Why does every unit ability need to be one that you can use in all cases instead of a few abilities that have its uses in certain cases?