Cybran torpedo on amphibious units

[Gorton]

Again, no one suggested nerfing t1 navy.

Spoiler: show

The issue being raised is really that having boats in the water is the only practical form of Cybran naval defense. Wagners don't threaten anything when they're in the water, so it's not like you could use them to even chase boats off and give yourself some breathing room. The rest of the factions have this option.

Torp ACU.

[Apofenas]

Wagners need to get a buff for their torp weapons. However they must have similar impact on navy as t2 hover tanks, which got nerfed in this area with their current speed on water. However since it would have under water usage, there will be no sence in wagner being equal(+/-) to rhino, so it would need main weapon nerf (it would be shame to lose only efficient t2 tank that is faster than harb)
This also will cause under used t1 subs to be built to kill wagners under water, so these units may get some buff in terms of hp or at least unused torp defences in sera sub and aeon frigate.

Although i don't see a lot of connection between t2 hover/amphibious tanks and cybran "epic" t1 navy. If i'm not mistaken cybran and uef frigates became cheaper and got stronger weapons because of auroras and zthuees being too strong on water 5x5, 10x10 maps which we had a bunch in ladder. Neither zthuee nor aurora weren't really changed since than. You want t1 hover issue back or something? Even buffed wagners will not compensate this. If t1 hover could at least get speed on water nerf like t2, than sure, there could be a serious talk about nerfing cybran frigates.

[Gorton]

IIRC the change to the frigates was to make their weapons do same dps but different fire rate to make them more effcient in killing t1 hover.

[yeager]

to be fair spamming hover arty vs frigates is not worth doing unless you have 7+ factories, the slightest micro makes them suck. Also cybran t2 is the best all around, sub hunters can do tones (although destroyers have same view range subs always fire first) and throw a mermaid in (I'm staying in t2 so no sonar stealth) you can beat aeon, even in large numbers, because between stealth+ cruiser help you make up the dps. Also, if you win at t2, you can literally just keep going onto land, while every other factions has to switch to cruisers or amphib. vs uef you just have to actual spend a second or two to thinking and you demolish the early t2. And vs sera you can completely destroy. And to add to all this you get a upgrade that makes your com a t3 sub, and you had best t2 torp turret, AND a t3 torp turret, all this and best t1, (and mega) if you lose water its your own fault.

[yeager]

If you buffed brick torps on the other hand that would be fine, so you can get back in the water but only at t3

[Apofenas]

to be fair spamming hover arty vs frigates is not worth doing unless you have 7+ factories, the slightest micro makes them suck.

Go try cybran vs seraphim on ladder water map from that time like four corners or wilderness ect. They were removed from ladder cause it's insta win (or insta draw if it was Lame ) for faction with hover over faction without. It's not about zthuee spam, but about having units that can cross whole map since the beginning of the game, while uef/cybran need to make naval factory and frigate just to kill those hover units.

Also cybran t2 is the best all around, sub hunters can do tones (although destroyers have same view range subs always fire first) and throw a mermaid in (I'm staying in t2 so no sonar stealth) you can beat aeon, even in large numbers, because between stealth+ cruiser help you make up the dps. Also, if you win at t2, you can literally just keep going onto land, while every other factions has to switch to cruisers or amphib. vs uef you just have to actual spend a second or two to thinking and you demolish the early t2. And vs sera you can completely destroy. And to add to all this you get a upgrade that makes your com a t3 sub, and you had best t2 torp turret, AND a t3 torp turret, all this and best t1, (and mega) if you lose water its your own fault.

Spoiler: show

Cybran destroyer will lose to any other well microed destroyer in early t2 because they are silly in close fight and incapable to fire backwards while running away. Later in early t3 well microed battle cruiser or sera sub hunters will rape cybran destroyers and aeon destroyers in big numbers will surely win cybran ones because microing big numbers of ships is problematic and more efficient destroyers win and those are aeon. Moving cybran destroyers on land is only a good idea when you try to safe them from torps or when you are completely sure land units will not eat them.

T2 subs are basicly not a good way to spend resoruces since destroyers have better torpedoes, have direct fire weapon and less vulnerable to air.

T2 torp launcher is the obselite unit. I forgot when i saw it being built in 1v1 or team game last time. T3 torp launcher is the expensive unit that can be ground fired and killed by any unit with 1+ aoe incluuding frigates.

I'm not saying all these units and cybran navy are bad, but this is how i personally see the weaknesses which you count as strenghts for some reason. Stealth boats, cruiser direct fire cannon and torp com are real advantages; destroyer, t2 sub and t3 torp also give advantages but have some weaknesses too

If you buffed brick torps on the other hand that would be fine, so you can get back in the water but only at t3

Completely impossible. This is an efficient t3 land unit with 7.03 hp/mass and torp defence in addition. Barrakuda, which is in close price category has 1.3, destroyer has 2.68. Because of this brick can't get real torp dps. I tested this some time ago and i ended with like 40 dps or so, however got to remember that other factions have different stats and units which make things complicated: if bricks can draw t2 subs in equal mass, they will still lose to cybran destroyers, coopers and aeon destroyers; if they can draw aeon destroyers, they will win all other t2 naval units.

Wagner has same issue. It has low hp/mass compare to other t2 tanks but it cant get a lot of torp dps since t1 subs have far worse hp/mass.

[yeager]

Right now cybrans have the strongest naval presence, sure t3 is a little weak, but all things considered if your playing a navy map, cybrans the boss. Waters of Isis, ozone, setons (although it takes a little more thought) etc. sure some maps (like 80k maps) lends themselves to uef and other (like wilderness) lend themselves to Aron and sera, but overall cybrans have an amazing water force, the clear victor at t1, a more than fair chance at beating anyone at t2, and a well rounded t3, not to mention mega and com. There is no reason to give them greT amphib too, especially considering the destroy +Wagner is more than a match for any other force. And you have the best air to ground in the game, why do you need a super Wagner?

[keyser]

I think wagner doesn t need buff on torpedoes because they have now speed advantage over hover in water (kinda compensate, make it a more viable raiding unit than hover for water map)

[Apofenas]

Waters of Isis, ozone, setons (although it takes a little more thought) etc.

Stella maris and open waters are maps where cybran navy is stronger, but not onces you say. You just named maps where you take uef engineer and make battle cruiser rush and slaughter t2 navy.

I don't speak about making super wagner, but about fixing some issues of this game, which are:
-Fix this pathetic ultra useless 3dps weapon, which is basicly the same 50 dps weapon on land;
-make t2, t3, shield, nano, torp ACU incapable of reclaiming/killing infinite amount of wagners under water and dance conga on their bodies;
-force aeon/seraphim to go in water on hover byased maps to make subs to prevent wagner raids the same way as cybran are forced to make frigates;
-Limit ACU+hover pushes by threatening it with ACU+wagner under water;
-Make more use of currently least usefull aeon and seraphim t1 subs;
-Make wagner less usefull on land so rhino wouldn't have a challenge;

This is already calculated and tested in Ithilis's equilibrium mod, where wagners have 10 dps with only 1 projectile every 10 seconds on 20 range, no water vision and less effectiveness on land.

[Zock]

Keep in mind that all units with secondary weapons were once good (in vanilla), but GPG nerfed all of them in FA for a reason. We changed this in FAF for one unit, the cybran frigate (and destroyer to a lesser extend), and it became a very powerful unit.

This doesn't mean a change would be good or bad, just something to not forget.