cloak , transports, shield and ASF

Moderator: JaggedAppliance

cloak , transports, shield and ASF

Postby ZeRen » 04 Jul 2015, 10:58

Cyb comm/SACU cloak upgrade:
there were some discussion about useless/not used upgrade, so one of them is cloak(especially on SACU)

I have idea about it. Make cloak upgrade cheaper with similar cost(and build time) to Sera first nano,so cybran could do it sooner,but cloak would be off by default and need like 9 000 power per second to run, so usable only in late game

this give cybran better chance againts shield comm (cyb still cant have t2 and gun at same time...)
and with SACU cybran could decide if he want fast regenerating SACU or with big HP

cloak is never used on SACU( teleport what others have is much more usefull)
------------------------------------------------------------
Transport HP:
I think would be nice if t2 transports have more HP (+500 would be nice), so we could se more drops(I think everyone likes drops) ,becouse ASF are so fast with so big dps they just kill transport in 1 sec and T2 transport is used mostly when Swifts and ASF are on battlefield
------------------------------------------------------------
make ASF not able to kill landed air units:

when opponent of your air player has air dominance, you cant even build transports, becouse he just fly over your base for 1 sec and all trasports are dead, so no drops/logistic possible

if you land your air in your base and opponent air will kill it you could have same problem like with ASF killing drones

so my suggestion is that ASF won't be able to kill any landed air units(only swifts and inties will) , all so cant kill units like bug(soul ripper) and T4 bomber under contruction

except more drops there is another nice thing, when your air player lose air he can just land his air(make them not fire) rest of ASF, gunships, strats,...and slowly recover, becouse his opponent cant just fly over his base kill whole rest of his air

if you are not air player, would be nice to not be afraid about your trasports, just let it land (if trasport would be loaded then ASF could kill it, becouse it will levitating above ground)

please concider this, I think this could help a lot regain air back (at least to save your strats and gunships before you get air back)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Cybrans tech 3 shield:
so there is many people who want nerv TML, so nerv it and give T3 shield to cybran instead
it is already done, I made mod it is in vaults(search "ZeRen")

(you could make ED3 as Tech3 shield, but ED5 will be easier and it is done already)

cybran shield are weakest, cost much more and are most annoying to manage( shotcut for queue all upgrade would be nice too- eco manager has this, so you could take it)
User avatar
ZeRen
Evaluator
 
Posts: 639
Joined: 03 Aug 2014, 08:22
Has liked: 153 times
Been liked: 49 times
FAF User Name: ZeRen

Re: cloak , transports, shield and ASF

Postby Apofenas » 04 Jul 2015, 13:04

Cybran cloak upgrade on SCU is far better survivability boost than shield and nano upgrades to other factions. Once you get it, you start spreading moles around your base and turn cloak on them(may probably want to put a couple stealth gens in addition) and your ACU will not be sniped unless it's by accident. I saw people getting mazer-cloak-gun ACUs but its very uncommon thing to do and may end either with epic ACU push or with suicide.

The upgrade on SCU is mostly obselite. Nano is so much better for rambo SCUs and AA preset is better for battle engineers. Although i saw this upgrade used to troll people: reclaim on enemy territory, capture engineers and other key stuff that will surely pay off SCU. The cybran SCU doesn't have dps upgrades to shoot from cloak and do damage before it gets killed so capturing is just safer especially if enemy doesn't notice it. In FFAs it's a very good upgrade, but it's hard to use in team games.

500 hp buff for t2 transport will not make a lot of difference for ASFs, but will make reasonable difference for t1 inties and t1-t2 ground AA.

I mentioned about cybran shields before. It may probably need whole rework because you simply need more and more mass to get additional HP: ed2->ed3 800 mass for 3k more HP, ed3->ed4 1200 mass for 3k more HP and ed4->ed5 1800 mass for 2k more HP. Eventually you invest ~1200 mass more for same shield as UEF T3 can build straight.
There is one problem: upgrade costs same as building unit from nothing, so if you make for example ED5 buildable, it will cost 1800 mass, which is extremely cheap for t3 shield, but if you make it cost 3k as t3 shield, than you will over pay ~2400 mass for ED5 by upgrading it from ED1 compare to 600 and 700 for UEF and sera. Did you solve this problem in your mod?
I suggest next:
-ED3 cost 400(from 800) mass for upgrade - 860 mass from total from ed1. So this stage would be more competitive to other factions' t2 shields.
-ED4 buildable on t3, cost 2800-3000(from 1200) mass, 15000(from 13000) hp. So this shield would be very close to UEF t3 for both being built from nothing and being upgraded from t2, have same hp, but have significant disadvantage: shield size of ed4 is 34 compare to 44 for UEF)
-ED5 cost 1000+ mass for upgrade, have 18000-21000(from 15000) hp. So this shield would be close to aeon and seraphim t3 shields but have ineffective hp/mass compare to all other t3 shields including ED4
BalanceVictim wrote:I tried it out, and yes, the anti-torpedo is a useful tool now. Sadly, the rest of the unit is still extremely weak compared to any other frig
Apofenas
Contributor
 
Posts: 744
Joined: 21 Jul 2013, 14:39
Has liked: 175 times
Been liked: 180 times
FAF User Name: Apofenas

Re: cloak , transports, shield and ASF

Postby IceDreamer » 04 Jul 2015, 13:25

3641 is already going to do something for ED5. We're going to make it so that the SCU Rebuilder behaviour will be able to rebuild a dead shield at the appropriate level, so that'll help in one niche. I'm personally against lowering the overall costs for the shields. Instead, I'd much rather give people a real reason to go ED5 by giving it a very special, very unique property. Not sure what, but ideas could be momentum cancelling, hurting units who pass the shield, reflector, ricochet, built-in stealth gen... There's loads of possibilities.
IceDreamer
Supreme Commander
 
Posts: 2600
Joined: 27 Dec 2011, 07:01
Has liked: 138 times
Been liked: 481 times

Re: cloak , transports, shield and ASF

Postby ZeRen » 04 Jul 2015, 15:36

Cybran cloak upgrade on SCU is far better survivability boost than shield and nano upgrades to other factions. Once you get it, you start spreading moles around your base and turn cloak on them(may probably want to put a couple stealth gens in addition) and your ACU will not be sniped unless it's by accident. I saw people getting mazer-cloak-gun ACUs but its very uncommon thing to do and may end either with epic ACU push or with suicide.

you absolutly misunderstand me...

500 hp buff for t2 transport will not make a lot of difference for ASFs, but will make reasonable difference for t1 inties and t1-t2 ground AA.

fair enough

I mentioned about cybran shields before. It may probably need whole rework because you simply need more and more mass to get additional HP: ed2->ed3 800 mass for 3k more HP, ed3->ed4 1200 mass for 3k more HP and ed4->ed5 1800 mass for 2k more HP. Eventually you invest ~1200 mass more for same shield as UEF T3 can build straight.
There is one problem: upgrade costs same as building unit from nothing, so if you make for example ED5 buildable, it will cost 1800 mass, which is extremely cheap for t3 shield, but if you make it cost 3k as t3 shield, than you will over pay ~2400 mass for ED5 by upgrading it from ED1 compare to 600 and 700 for UEF and sera. Did you solve this problem in your mod?
I suggest next:
-ED3 cost 400(from 800) mass for upgrade - 860 mass from total from ed1. So this stage would be more competitive to other factions' t2 shields.
-ED4 buildable on t3, cost 2800-3000(from 1200) mass, 15000(from 13000) hp. So this shield would be very close to UEF t3 for both being built from nothing and being upgraded from t2, have same hp, but have significant disadvantage: shield size of ed4 is 34 compare to 44 for UEF)
-ED5 cost 1000+ mass for upgrade, have 18000-21000(from 15000) hp. So this shield would be close to aeon and seraphim t3 shields but have ineffective hp/mass compare to all other t3 shields including ED4


if you would try my mod you would know that I know about all of it and figured it out
- in my mod is "Tech 2 ED5 shield"(nothing changed) and new "Tech 3 ED5 shield" separated building which cost similar to UEF T3 shield so no problem at all
User avatar
ZeRen
Evaluator
 
Posts: 639
Joined: 03 Aug 2014, 08:22
Has liked: 153 times
Been liked: 49 times
FAF User Name: ZeRen

Re: cloak , transports, shield and ASF

Postby ZeRen » 04 Jul 2015, 15:43

IceDreamer wrote:3641 is already going to do something for ED5. We're going to make it so that the SCU Rebuilder behaviour will be able to rebuild a dead shield at the appropriate level, so that'll help in one niche. I'm personally against lowering the overall costs for the shields. Instead, I'd much rather give people a real reason to go ED5 by giving it a very special, very unique property. Not sure what, but ideas could be momentum cancelling, hurting units who pass the shield, reflector, ricochet, built-in stealth gen... There's loads of possibilities.


yea, but SCU is rebuilding dead ED5 right know, straight to ED5 and very cheap and fast (probly using cost of upgrade from ED4 to ED5)

"built-in stealth gen... " so ED5 would work like steath generator? if yes I like it :)

but pls make the shortcut
User avatar
ZeRen
Evaluator
 
Posts: 639
Joined: 03 Aug 2014, 08:22
Has liked: 153 times
Been liked: 49 times
FAF User Name: ZeRen

Re: cloak , transports, shield and ASF

Postby Apofenas » 04 Jul 2015, 16:44

Nomads have stealth upgrades on their shield gens. Only case when they are used is when you specificly need stealth and nothing else and in that case you have to build shield first and than upgrade it bcause they don't have separate building. In case of 4k cost cybran shield when there is super effective and cheap cybran stealth gen, i think this ability will not be used at 99% of cases.

These cybran shields create enormous disadvantage in pretty much every aspect of late game because of being weakest shields for biggest cost combined with disadvantages of other units on t3. Such qustionable "abilities" will never compensate it. You get shields to cover units near, not to damage or stun enemy units when they get inside which they may not even do or kill shield before it does anything.

you absolutly misunderstand me...

i understood you. I mean it's used and used really effectively in snipe protection case. But what you suggest is nerf of that ability with huge 9k power requirement to run - that's about 12k mass spent into t3 pgens specially for cloak. But HP boost in mid game that can compite with shielded or nano ACU also affects naval balance as you get to take torpedo upgrade into account.
BalanceVictim wrote:I tried it out, and yes, the anti-torpedo is a useful tool now. Sadly, the rest of the unit is still extremely weak compared to any other frig
Apofenas
Contributor
 
Posts: 744
Joined: 21 Jul 2013, 14:39
Has liked: 175 times
Been liked: 180 times
FAF User Name: Apofenas


Return to Balance Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest