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t1 armies -> Lobo

PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015, 13:09
by Iszh
Hey i have a suggestion which is very tiny. All t1 armies have some specials like:

Mantis - Speed & Assist
Medusa - Stunn & Splash
Aurora - Range & Hover
Fervor - Damage & Precision
Thaam - None
Zthuee - Strong Damage & Hover
Striker - 30Life
Lobo - Sight

Atm for me it looks like UEF has problems vs others but thats not exactly the reason why i write this. Mantis is running striker tanks away and killing mex behind. Aurora is outranging striker meanwhile mantis is to fast and will overrun them. I think other factions have so good bonuses meanwhile the advantages of an uef army goes to nearly 0. In former times uef t1 Army had 1 also strong feature and i suggest to bring it back. I dont know why it was removed at all ...

-> Add 5 Life to lobo

Result should be that Lobo will survive 2 acu shots and you need 3 which makes uef t1 army mix a bit more effective against acu. That would be a bonus equivalent to Swimming t1 tanks and about cybran there is no discussion that they have enough of bonus. Seraphim t1 tank got nothing very likely because the arti is very strong. But lobo we cant call to strong. 5 additional life would make not much difference for t1 army fights but bring a small advantage vs enemy acu. Compared to those other especially t1 arti bonuses thats not to much demanded i think :|

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015, 13:22
by pip
Lobo had 5 more hp in the past, and they were OP, so it was changed by GPG (3603 or before).

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015, 13:26
by Iszh
What exactly was the reason to be op? i never noticed this and also played gpg times. I cant imagine that 5 life can have so big effect since it only influences acu vs lobo. but you cant spam lobo anyways vs big enemy t1 armies ?!? Have i missed something? Uef t1 is not much fun atm i would say thats why i remembered this in general. Just watch medusa killing t2 tanks is that not imba?

Just to write it was gpg patch and imba is not enough Info and absolutely no reason against.

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015, 14:00
by pip
It was OP for the precise reason you mention : against ACU. Even many top players said so, especially on some maps (Winter Duel for instance). If that change was a bad one, I guess the top players would have voiced it by now, and asked for a reversion.

It's probably possible to see the threads about it on GPGnet forum, or in an archive of it. Or ask Voodoo, Luxy, Zock etc about it.

In my opinion, lobo was not very good after losing these HP, and that's why I decreased their reload time in a previous balance patch.

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015, 14:11
by Iszh
Yes i noticed this change, that was needed because lobo was simply bad. But it doesnt give them something that really compensates the good advantages of other t1 factions like hover abilities and stunn. I would be really glad to hear those people you mentioned. I also thought that exactly those people can tell most about this story.

That nobody wanted to have it back maybe simply happens because nobody of top players likes to play uef so why to care about ;) Sounds funny but this is fact that you can easily find top player cybran only. I am watching often 1v1 replays 1800+. But you will search very very long time to find 1 uef only player in high ranks. No idea about sera and aeon, for some time i ve seen some players playing often sera and aeon above 1800 rating in 1v1. TA4life for example was aeon for some time. But uef i really never have seen somebody who played more than 5 games uef in a row high rank 1v1. Maybe a 205 life lobo would make this possible :mrgreen:

At least a discussion about this would be nice.

p.s. The leaderboards information about map statistics also show for a long time an under average win ratio for uef in not mirror games. And this is not only because i am playing so bad :lol:
(I asked luxy in chat and he told it would be fine to add the 5 life back again since the game has changed so much meanwhile it is no problem anymore. I try to interview more people. I have a copy of the chat with luxy in aeolus but i am not sure if i am allowed to post it here so i will not do it atm.)

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015, 15:58
by yeager
Iszh wrote:Hey i have a suggestion which is very tiny. All t1 armies have some specials like:

Mantis - Speed & Assist
Medusa - Stunn & Splash
Aurora - Range & Hover
Fervor - Damage & Precision
Thaam - None
Zthuee - Strong Damage & Hover
Striker - 30Life
Lobo - Sight

Atm for me it looks like UEF has problems vs others but thats not exactly the reason why i write this. Mantis is running striker tanks away and killing mex behind. Aurora is outranging striker meanwhile mantis is to fast and will overrun them. I think other factions have so good bonuses meanwhile the advantages of an uef army goes to nearly 0. In former times uef t1 Army had 1 also strong feature and i suggest to bring it back. I dont know why it was removed at all ...

-> Add 5 Life to lobo

Result should be that Lobo will survive 2 acu shots and you need 3 which makes uef t1 army mix a bit more effective against acu. That would be a bonus equivalent to Swimming t1 tanks and about cybran there is no discussion that they have enough of bonus. Seraphim t1 tank got nothing very likely because the arti is very strong. But lobo we cant call to strong. 5 additional life would make not much difference for t1 army fights but bring a small advantage vs enemy acu. Compared to those other especially t1 arti bonuses thats not to much demanded i think :|

Most players will consider uef the most OP right, and remember uef is god like mid- end game, they don't need good t1
Edit: don't forget hover is countered by the fact seraphim and aeon t1 navy is awful, you have to factor that in when you look at these things

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015, 22:20
by pip
The 205 hp on top of the faster reload time would be likely op. It's either one of them, but probably not both. And in any case, it would have to be thoroughly tested on maps where artilleries+ACU fights are key like Winter Duel.

What Luxy probably means is that before, it was a very important advantange because t1 phase was extremely long. Now that the meta game has a more developed t2, which occurs sooner, lobo with 205 hp would maybe not be as big of a deal as before.

I personnally don't think the current lobo is weak per se and that this change is really needed. I don't think UEF t1 is weak except on maps with water like the wilderness, and in that situation, your lobo suggested buff doesn't help. The 205 hp / 10 secs reload would give a more old school flavour to the unit. However, I would be intested to know other top players' opinions about this if you get the chance to discuss it with them.

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015, 22:57
by Kalvirox
Mantis can capture buildings... If you make them assist and engie and make the engie capture something the mantis will help too :)

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

PostPosted: 30 Jun 2015, 01:58
by zeroAPM
yeager wrote:Most players will consider uef the most OP right, and remember uef is god like mid- end game, they don't need good t1
Edit: don't forget hover is countered by the fact seraphim and aeon t1 navy is awful, you have to factor that in when you look at these things


However, at least in 1v1, T1 is the most important phase of the game.
Is the phase where you get map control, thus reclaim/mass spots, thus early eco advantage that snowballs in a much greater advantage as time goes on.

What use is a good T2 if you can't even get enough resources to reach it because the enemy's superior T1 allowed him to cap most mass spots, destroy engineers, build more units (cuz they are cheaper), raid your eco and, as result, be already building T2 while you struggle to get the HQ?

Tl;dr: Cybran rules, UEF go home

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

PostPosted: 30 Jun 2015, 07:30
by Reaper Zwei
Eh? I dont really see UEF being that week at T1. Maybe not the strongest but certainly not crap.