Open Palms 2v1 flanks

[Lieutenant Lich]

Alright, most of you know that I love Open Palms team games with odd slots vs. even, where I am always in the air spot.
Problem is, I often see how either of the flanks get a 2v1 where air player comes over with his com, adding a lot of firepower to the front. If either of them has gun, it is even worse. I try to get gun ASAP by making pgens, assisting my com with engies, etc so I can assist but often I come too late. How to deal with 2v1 on a flank on Open Palms? Any advice how an air player can assist, besides air? I usually have either air supremacy or have an equilibrium of air force with the other team.

[angus000]

The map is so small that you shouldn't go 100% air to begin with, you need to engage in land combat as well. Also if you put pressure on your rival (with land), he shouldn't be able to help his teammates as much. Going land is always the best option, at the very least with your com alone, so if he doesn't go land, then just go land yourself anyway and one of his teammates will fall in the blink of an eye.

[Lieutenant Lich]

The map is so small that you shouldn't go 100% air to begin with, you need to engage in land combat as well. Also if you put pressure on your rival (with land), he shouldn't be able to help his teammates as much. Going land is always the best option, at the very least with your com alone, so if he doesn't go land, then just go land yourself anyway and one of his teammates will fall in the blink of an eye.

I do go land. I have 4-5 land facs and 1 air. Priority is on land but I get it later than air, hence the problem - my forces are late to the party of 2v1. If enemy doesn't go land - I beat those fellas, I know.

[angus000]

The map is so small that you shouldn't go 100% air to begin with, you need to engage in land combat as well. Also if you put pressure on your rival (with land), he shouldn't be able to help his teammates as much. Going land is always the best option, at the very least with your com alone, so if he doesn't go land, then just go land yourself anyway and one of his teammates will fall in the blink of an eye.

I do go land. I have 4-5 land facs and 1 air. Priority is on land but I get it later than air, hence the problem - my forces are late to the party of 2v1. If enemy doesn't go land - I beat those fellas, I know.

Getting air before land spam is pretty usual and shouldn't delay your land spam more than a minute at most, I see nothing wrong there. Unless you are getting 3 air facts and/or tons of pgs. Or maybe you are just too slow building your initial infrastructure for land spam. This is a very common problem for some +-1100 players (dunno your rating, just saying).

Really, one air fact shouldn't be that much of a delay.


Edit.: lmao I remembered I had a game like your's on open palms and me as air 2 days ago, when I went to watch the replay I realized you were my oponent lol (my faf username is flexible)

Well, seeing the replay (and another one of yours) the problem is clear, you used only one engi to build your land spam!! That's way too slow, you need to use at least two; three is even better. You may use your commander as well (counts as two engies). Also you weren't late with your com, I just decided to use mine offensively asap without any upgrade. That's the cost of oportunity you are losing, you are too passive until it's late. There's nothing wrong with making gun and some units before attacking, but you need to make it pay off, something that won't happen with only one engy on land fact spam.

Of course you need to improve other things too, like being more proactive right at the start; use more engies to build; manually reclaim rocks asap (economy in SC is exponential, the sooner you get your resources the most you'll get from them); harrass more with bombers, specially at the beginning; pause stuff when stalling (you decided to go guncom while already on -27 mass on one of your games); and using your military units all the time, not letting them idle until you have a bunch.
So basically, you need more apm, aka you are too passive.

Micro was OK, strategic decisions were OK.

[Lieutenant Lich]

Well, seeing the replay (and another one of yours) the problem is clear, you used only one engy to build your land spam!! That's way too slow, you need to use at least two; three is even better. You may use your commander as well (counts as two engies). Also you weren't late with your com, I just decided to use mine offensively asap without any upgrade. That's the cost of opportunity you are losing, you are too passive until it's late. There's nothing wrong with making gun and some units before attacking, but you need to make it pay off, something that won't happen with only one engy on land fact spam.

All right. I prefer to get gun so I can actually be useful to my allies. That suggests giving up middle.

Of course you need to improve other things too, like being more proactive right at the start; use more engies to build; manually reclaim rocks asap (economy in SC is exponential, the sooner you get your resources the most you'll get from them); harass more with bombers, specially at the beginning; pause stuff when stalling (you decided to go guncom while already on -27 mass on one of your games); and using your military units all the time, not letting them idle until you have a bunch.
So basically, you need more apm, aka you are too passive.

if you saw me going gun at -27 mass - that's probably the time when I was getting to know cybran. I didn't like it so I am always UEF. I usually try to get a T2 mex as early as possible, hence the -27, because of engies assisting. Now I do pause that to get gun quicker.
Reclaim - I set alt-right click on trees from the start. After the initial 3 builder engies come off and tanks with scouts leave, the 10 engies that come off reclaim. Guess I have to tie two to the land fac building engy to speed it up. I need to send an engy in the corner to reclaim.
B.O. -

[keyser]

you obv need to bring your com too pretty fast.
and it end up into 2x 2v1 (with possibly a trade base situation) or a 1v1 and a 2v2.
i would get the gun when i realize that it is the 1v1 and 2v2 situation.
But in the 2x 2v1 situation would win the 2v1 asap (not waste time to get a gun), and continue the push in the air player base. The goal is the one that can kill the most base in the less time. (and try to slow the opponent attack by putting T1 pd, walls...)

[angus000]

All right. I prefer to get gun so I can actually be useful to my allies. That suggests giving up middle.

It depends on the situation but it might already be too late by the time you bring your acu if you go gun first.

if you saw me going gun at -27 mass - that's probably the time when I was getting to know cybran. I didn't like it so I am always UEF. I usually try to get a T2 mex as early as possible, hence the -27, because of engies assisting. Now I do pause that to get gun quicker.
Reclaim - I set alt-right click on trees from the start. After the initial 3 builder engies come off and tanks with scouts leave, the 10 engies that come off reclaim. Guess I have to tie two to the land fac building engy to speed it up. I need to send an engy in the corner to reclaim.
B.O. -

Actually you were UEF when you were -27 mass, maybe it was just that game though. However, you can't go t2 mex, land spam, and guncom at the same time. You need to do one after another (in most cases). In such a small map, best thing to do is rush your commander to the battle field while spending your resources on land factories, once your factories are in place, you can go either gun or t2 mex. You can also build your factories with com if you don't have engies available.

Also, manual reclaim is not alt + right click, but shift + reclaim button + left click spam on rocks/trees.

[Lieutenant Lich]

So you are suggesting me to get my air up with com and engy, leave 3 engies setting up land, 1-2 send to the corner to reclaim and take the mexes, move my com middle, get a wall up or PDs to keep the hill?

[angus000]

So you are suggesting me to get my air up with com and engy, leave 3 engies setting up land, 1-2 send to the corner to reclaim and take the mexes, move my com middle, get a wall up or PDs to keep the hill?

Exactly, except for the hill. That part depends on you and the situation, as usual.

[lextoc]

Alright, most of you know that I love Open Palms team games with odd slots vs. even, where I am always in the air spot.
Problem is, I often see how either of the flanks get a 2v1 where air player comes over with his com, adding a lot of firepower to the front. If either of them has gun, it is even worse. I try to get gun ASAP by making pgens, assisting my com with engies, etc so I can assist but often I come too late. How to deal with 2v1 on a flank on Open Palms? Any advice how an air player can assist, besides air? I usually have either air supremacy or have an equilibrium of air force with the other team.

If you start building pgens to get gun when you spot an enemy ACU with gun to counter it, don't you think that's a little bit too late? Air on open palms isn't that strong, especially in 2vs2 or 3vs3. Start with building a scout plane and checking where the enemy air ACU is going. Then, depending on what your opponent is doing, you can build air or build something that actually kills.

Get the idea of having an air-only player on Open Palms 2vs2/3vs3 out of your head, it might work if you are really good but since you think you can start building pgens to get gun when you spot an ACU with gun (on a super small map like Open Palms) I don't believe you're really good, no offense.