T3 Air

[RoLa]

-

Better to make asf use lots of fuel so that to have many asf operational one will need to create a whole infrastructure with aircraftcarriers/ air staging facilities.

Now you build 3 Air Staging Facilities which cost about 2 ASF and you are good. This doesnt prevent you from stacking more asf. Only in conjunction with a high mantainance cost it would prevent of stacking ASF.

the only way to add create a new counter to ASF without changing the dynamic of existing units is to add a t3 mobile flak unit for all factions.

That isnt necessarily right. Perhaps a small buff of t2 flak against t3 air would do the same thing.


Or just half the build cost (mass and energy) of all air units but let them cost lets say in 10 minutes the same amount as building them new now . Adjust a bit the veterancy. So that you wont throw away veteran air units.

maintainance cost for 60 asf with maintainance/refuel every 10 minutes
60 / 10 / 60 x (350m,40000e) = (35m,4000e) per second

so you need 2xt3 mexes + t3 power to mantain your air force of 60 asf. That should have some impact. Adding 10 t3 bombers have aproximatly the same impact on eco than 60 asf
10 / 10 / 60 x (2100m,105000e) = (35m,1750e) per second

How would this change gameplay? I think it would it force you to build air forces more quickly (not earlier) and use them constantly. Because not using costs more. You wont stack 30 bombers in a final snipe unless you have so much build power, to do so quickly, that the maintainnce wont eat you up. Loosing air means you get some flexility back resulting in more dynamic games. In conjunction with splash damage, It means also splitting up the air force isnt that bad. Because number of air units are limited the impact on gameplay must be evaluated. Air exps aa guns probably should be nerfed.

How realistic is it to implement this idea? Can refuel cost resources? Or can resources only be used if planes are docked? Or do we need to code some workaround? air units loose health over time? So maintaince cost=repair cost. Or should air staging drain constant resources, so limit the capacities some number of planes per minute. If nothing helps planes could also directly use energy.

[IceDreamer]

You know I've been thinking... If T3 Mobile AA is the best fix in theory, we may be able to do it without adding a new unit.

Buff T2 Mobile Flack...

Yeah, I know, it's too strong compared to static Flack already, it's balanced with T2 Air already, but actually, where T2 Air is concerned, 'Balanced' in this case means 'Can't get anywhere near when Mobile Flack is around'. My point is, making the MuzzleVelocity higher (So they can hit ASFs) and doing something else (No clue really, but my thought from last night of draining fuel on hit makes most sense) won't actually change anything at the T2 Stage. T2 Air will go from being absolutely slaughtered by Mobile Flack to being... Absolutely slaughtered by Mobile Flack... Static Flack goes from being useless and about to be buffed to being... useless and about to be buffed (A bit more)... Nothing actually changes.

No new unit to add
Field-wide AA is already established by T3, making blob-building harder if you want to use them at all
Unit is already familiar to players, and this change requires no new gameplay or micro of the Flack (No learning curve)
ASF positioning and route to target becomes important
*If 'Drains fuel on hit' is added* Brings Air Staging and all that jazz to the fore.

[pip]

You know I've been thinking... If T3 Mobile AA is the best fix in theory, we may be able to do it without adding a new unit.

Buff T2 Mobile Flack...

Yeah, I know, it's too strong compared to static Flack already, it's balanced with T2 Air already, but actually, where T2 Air is concerned, 'Balanced' in this case means 'Can't get anywhere near when Mobile Flack is around'. My point is, making the MuzzleVelocity higher (So they can hit ASFs) and doing something else (No clue really, but my thought from last night of draining fuel on hit makes most sense) won't actually change anything at the T2 Stage. T2 Air will go from being absolutely slaughtered by Mobile Flack to being... Absolutely slaughtered by Mobile Flack... Static Flack goes from being useless and about to be buffed to being... useless and about to be buffed (A bit more)... Nothing actually changes.

Nothing actually changes? Really? If mobile flaks (160 mass) have faster muzzle velocity so that they can destroy ASF, they will "absolutely slaughter" every flying thing, from t1 interceptors to t3 bombers (2100 mass), removing all air gameplay at t2 and t3. It's a fix indeed : no more ASF spam for sure. It's like disabling t3 air units from the game in the game options : it solves the issue, but not in an elegant way.

[Patton]

-

Better to make asf use lots of fuel so that to have many asf operational one will need to create a whole infrastructure with aircraftcarriers/ air staging facilities.

Now you build 3 Air Staging Facilities which cost about 2 ASF and you are good. This doesnt prevent you from stacking more asf. Only in conjunction with a high mantainance cost it would prevent of stacking ASF.

the only way to add create a new counter to ASF without changing the dynamic of existing units is to add a t3 mobile flak unit for all factions.

That isnt necessarily right. Perhaps a small buff of t2 flak against t3 air would do the same thing.


Or just half the build cost (mass and energy) of all air units but let them cost lets say in 10 minutes the same amount as building them new now . Adjust a bit the veterancy. So that you wont throw away veteran air units.

maintainance cost for 60 asf with maintainance/refuel every 10 minutes
60 / 10 / 60 x (350m,40000e) = (35m,4000e) per second

so you need 2xt3 mexes + t3 power to mantain your air force of 60 asf. That should have some impact. Adding 10 t3 bombers have aproximatly the same impact on eco than 60 asf
10 / 10 / 60 x (2100m,105000e) = (35m,1750e) per second

How would this change gameplay? I think it would it force you to build air forces more quickly (not earlier) and use them constantly. Because not using costs more. You wont stack 30 bombers in a final snipe unless you have so much build power, to do so quickly, that the maintainnce wont eat you up. Loosing air means you get some flexility back resulting in more dynamic games. In conjunction with splash damage, It means also splitting up the air force isnt that bad. Because number of air units are limited the impact on gameplay must be evaluated. Air exps aa guns probably should be nerfed.

How realistic is it to implement this idea? Can refuel cost resources? Or can resources only be used if planes are docked? Or do we need to code some workaround? air units loose health over time? So maintenance cost=repair cost. Or should air staging drain constant resources, so limit the capacities some number of planes per minute. If nothing helps planes could also directly use energy.

This is the most elegant idea you will find regarding a fix to ASFs. Logistics win wars, and it's been doubly true for air battles because aircraft use massive amounts of fuel and ordnance in a very short period of time.

Perhaps add a constant energy drain for aircraft in the air, and power stalling will result in aircraft quickly draining onboard reserves and crashing (<1min of onboard energy reserve). This matches the available number of ASFs to energy production. Additionally, aircraft could consume some amount of energy every time they fire their weapons (think like a small overcharge, 1000 energy or so), so that combat requires a vulnerable component on the ground. This fits with the SC convention that everything is wirelessly provided power for operations and weapons and doesn't add a huge amount of new micro.
A power efficiency bonus could be provided by nearby staging facilities (defender advantage) and forcing ground control for an extended air campaign.

[IceDreamer]

You know I've been thinking... If T3 Mobile AA is the best fix in theory, we may be able to do it without adding a new unit.

Buff T2 Mobile Flack...

Yeah, I know, it's too strong compared to static Flack already, it's balanced with T2 Air already, but actually, where T2 Air is concerned, 'Balanced' in this case means 'Can't get anywhere near when Mobile Flack is around'. My point is, making the MuzzleVelocity higher (So they can hit ASFs) and doing something else (No clue really, but my thought from last night of draining fuel on hit makes most sense) won't actually change anything at the T2 Stage. T2 Air will go from being absolutely slaughtered by Mobile Flack to being... Absolutely slaughtered by Mobile Flack... Static Flack goes from being useless and about to be buffed to being... useless and about to be buffed (A bit more)... Nothing actually changes.

Nothing actually changes? Really? If mobile flaks (160 mass) have faster muzzle velocity so that they can destroy ASF, they will "absolutely slaughter" every flying thing, from t1 interceptors to t3 bombers (2100 mass), removing all air gameplay at t2 and t3. It's a fix indeed : no more ASF spam for sure. It's like disabling t3 air units from the game in the game options : it solves the issue, but not in an elegant way.

Yeah, nothing changes. You act like T2 and T1 Air can operate in the range of a T2 Mobile Flack unit in the current balance. They cannot. The current MuzzleVelocity hits very very nicely against all T1 and T2 tech already, so an increase there makes NO DIFFERENCE to those units, only to ASFs.

Also, I'm not suggesting we make them destroy ASF completely, merely that we make them able to hit blobs a bit more than they do now. No change to DPS or AOE means no difference VS T2 or T1 Air units. The only negative I can think of from this is that they might now hit T3 Bombers... I'm not even sure that's a problem, since T3 Bombers are currently balanced in an environment where they rarely get more than 1 pass thanks to, oh yeah, ASFs... They would still get 7 or 8 passes against a small clump of Flack, even if the Flack were able to connect better than they do now.

[Cantor]

T2 bombers can currently snipe flak. In fact that is one of their best uses: build gunships plus one or two t2 bombers. Snipe the flak in a force with the bombers, kill the rest with the gunships. Higher level players do this all the time. It works especially well with cybran.

[IceDreamer]

T2 bombers can currently snipe flak. In fact that is one of their best uses: build gunships plus one or two t2 bombers. Snipe the flak in a force with the bombers, kill the rest with the gunships. Higher level players do this all the time. It works especially well with cybran.

Yes, and they would still be able to. In the Sniping process, the Bombers already get hit by the Flack, just they aren't in the airspace very long so they take only a few hits. Again, this wouldn't change much, if at all.

[Master_Vallex]

You know I've been thinking... If T3 Mobile AA is the best fix in theory, we may be able to do it without adding a new unit.

Buff T2 Mobile Flack...

Yeah, I know, it's too strong compared to static Flack already, it's balanced with T2 Air already, but actually, where T2 Air is concerned, 'Balanced' in this case means 'Can't get anywhere near when Mobile Flack is around'. My point is, making the MuzzleVelocity higher (So they can hit ASFs) and doing something else (No clue really, but my thought from last night of draining fuel on hit makes most sense) won't actually change anything at the T2 Stage. T2 Air will go from being absolutely slaughtered by Mobile Flack to being... Absolutely slaughtered by Mobile Flack... Static Flack goes from being useless and about to be buffed to being... useless and about to be buffed (A bit more)... Nothing actually changes.

Nothing actually changes? Really? If mobile flaks (160 mass) have faster muzzle velocity so that they can destroy ASF, they will "absolutely slaughter" every flying thing, from t1 interceptors to t3 bombers (2100 mass), removing all air gameplay at t2 and t3. It's a fix indeed : no more ASF spam for sure. It's like disabling t3 air units from the game in the game options : it solves the issue, but not in an elegant way.

i think i have an elegant way actually. we dont need an asf counter, we need a strat counter (asf counter leads to asf stack...)
i repeat myself, but just let strats fly deeper, so no need to change mobile t2 aa to actually hit them. asf can be used as in 3599(which seems to be the best way of all we had yet) but strats finally get a mobile counter without changing ANY stat basicly.

[rootbeer23]

here is my opinion:

problem 1: super fast strat bomber is invincible and lead to so much desperation.
solution: make the speed difference between intis and strat bombers smaller. doesnt have to be a lot, because with
a little luck, interceptors can actually intercept bombers already, mainly because bombers have to circle an area mostly.

problem 2: the winner of an asf engagement usually gets a big numbers advantage on the loser.
solution: make asf slower when they shoot, so that the loser can fly away from an unfavourable situation.
for example he would be able to shoot down a high priority target like a bomber or transport and then get out of the engagement. naturally he will still lose more planes to the fighter cover that comes with the high value target, but not all
of his planes. if that cannot be implemented, reduce the asf weapons range a little bit. currently it is just possible to escape,
provided that the pursuer does not fly 100% accurate.

[Mycen]

but just let strats fly deeper,

What do you mean, "deeper"? As in, at a lower altitude, or what?