Other minor changes

[Plasma_Wolf]

The most annoying one of them all: the broadsword AA gun of 3 dp. Was that changed a long time ago? I forgot

[IceDreamer]

Changed in the latest, now does 12DPS

[Lionhardt]

But don't effective secondary weapons (why are they called "token"??) disturb the rock paper scissors system?

[Mycen]

But don't effective secondary weapons (why are they called "token"??) disturb the rock paper scissors system?

Not necessarily. The naval aspect of the game, for example, is in a large part defined by the secondary weapons of its units.

Remember, there's a rock-paper-scissors aspect to SupCom, but the game is meant primarily to be a simulation of this future warfare. Balance is determined by factions' overall traits and abilities, not by the specific unit choices. When you start balancing towards a rock-paper-scissors type balance you start changing it from SupCom to StarCraft.


I still think the flak cannon on the Broadsword would have been really awesome though.

[errorblankfield]

But don't effective secondary weapons (why are they called "token"??) disturb the rock paper scissors system?

Token: done for the sake of appearances or as a symbolic gesture

It's not the most used version of the word, but token is routinely used in this situation.

And no, effective secondary weapons won't ruin the game. The best way to explain it (in my head) is look at any land unit. It can fire at ANYTHING other than air units and subs. It's weapons aren't restricted to just buildings, ACUs, or other land units.

However, the way an arty fires makes it very good at killing buildings, snipers for ACUs, and spam spam ETC. In a pinch, you can use a suboptimal counter (arty vs spam) in cases where you are surprised and need to develop a counter. And this is how it should be. If you couldn't use arty to counter spam at all, a few land units could waltz into your arty only base and have a free day with NO chance of death. So the only option becomes 'build an equal amount of everything' lest the opponent builds something you don't have a counter on field for.

It's odd thinking in terms of land units, so suppose you build 10 surface navy and one sub strolls by and (slowly) ruins your day. There is nothing wrong with the surface navy being able to kill the sub at a very inefficient ratio (which 10 for one sub would be).

I find land/navy to be mostly okay. (Bar cybran amphibian) But air is terrible. Really only ASFs have AA. Every other plane has to run from air fights regardless of number. Did you know T3 bombers even HAD AA? If I had to guess, it takes no more than 1/8 the mass for ASFs to counter strats -it might be lower.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

[Lionhardt]

Strat AA is not even that ineffective. An early strat can defend itself against a handfull of inties and even fighter bombers. Ahwassa got a pretty decent AA capability too. When attacked by up tp 12 ASF only it can take em all out.

[Gerfand]

a few land units could waltz into your arty only base and have a free day with NO chance of death.

If I had to guess, it takes no more than 1/8 the mass for ASFs to counter strats -it might be lower.

why do you think we have Titans/Loyalist?

NO is not, hey go play Thrawns Revenge(is a mod for a SW "RTS"), the K-wings(an New Republic Bomber) kill T.I.E. Interceptors in a 1v1(if the K-wings are runnig away, and shooting on your ISD, so they get Air Control and kill your's Destroyer Shields)

[errorblankfield]

Yes, a strat can defend a COUPLE of lower teir planes.

For the record, the AA on a strat is less than that of one inty. In the entire 50 mass it takes to make an inty, we can't even have an equal DPS weapon on the 2100 mass strat.

And an experimental being downed by 13 T3 units? It costs 137 ASFs to make, and is killable with 13. A more realistic number is 20+ but the point is still there. The AA is pointless against anything but Intys. Even then, I'd guess if you got a mass equivalent (of 15 asfs) amount of them, the Ahwassa would still crumble.

I think they should be able to handle 1/5 their mass in AA. In other words, the Ahwassa being able to handle 30 ASFs -but taking heavy damage.

@Gerfand
You missed the point completely... (lol titans)

I was talking how arty can fire at all land targets to make a parallel to how others can't. There is a reason arty are mixed into all forms of land spam. If we removed this ability, we could see a lab just decimating fields of artillery without it being able to do anything about it. Labs are a good counter to arty, but at some point they will get nicked and die. But in the case of token weapons, the nicks never amount to anything.

It's an abstract example, so go by the examples I used later if that's not clicking right.

And I'm sorry, it's not 1/8 the mass to counter, it's 4/25 (.1666). Since strats have the AA of an inty (and thus can't kill shift), one ASF is enough.

[Gerfand]

well w/ the Titan Thing, I mean: if you micro then into T-2 Static/T-3 mobile arty, they can dodge the most of the shoots, and kill the arty after that, in T-1 arty vs Lab case I agree w/ you.

sorry for the SW example, but buff the Strat Bomber AA could make then OP against ASF...

[IceDreamer]

Don't be absurd Gerfand, the amount you would have to buff Strategic Bomber AA to make it imbalanced is ENORMOUS. We could easily, EASILY double the DPS and have no negative outcomes at all. I'm especially friendly to the idea of perhaps quadrupling the DPS, but massively frontloading it so that an early T3 Bomber cannot kill Interceptors any more easily than it can right now, but can dish out some damage to ASFs.