Torrent class - missle ship

[Hawkei]

Guys. Just stop with the reasons why the torrent is fine. If someone can't see the massive differnce between 150 and 200, all other logic will fall of deaf ears. The vocal minority doesn't deserve the attention after they have been told time and time again by better players.

But we really do enjoy these discussions so much and Ithillis_Quo is such a pleasure to converse with.

[Plasma_Wolf]

Well, I got some numbers wrong, ok.

It doesn't matter much: the Seraphim cruisers have 1hp missiles. Yes the UEF cruisers have 2hp missiles.
Some other things about them. The seraphim missiles do 500 damage. The UEF missiles do 300 damage. Both have a sixth of the HP of the Torrent

As the others said. 50 range is a lot, a big lot. As long as you think it isn't a lot, you haven't had a serious naval battle yet.

The way you calculate the nerf is also wrong.

800/1000 = 0,8 => -20% 1,5/5 =0,3 => -70%.

That is correct. So it loses 20% damage and 70% AoE, or 91% if you calculate it by surface area.

80x0,3= 24; 100%-24%=76%

Now you claim that:
1. The AoE reduction is as important as the damage reduction. This is wrong.
2. That all the other statistics have no value. Also this is wrong.

You claim that the change has made the Torrent four times weaker, that is absolutely ridiculous. I'll give you the 20% of the damage reduction, but no more than that. Before you say that numbers don't lie: numbers don't do anything, it's your interpretation of them that is wrong.

For weapons as this, I'd say that the following things are the most important.
1. Range
2. Firing Cycle
3. Damage per missile
4. AoE

Range: The additional 50 range compared to what any other unit can possibly have, allows you to set up your fleet in any way you want and still have all of it safely out of the enemy's hands.
The firing Cycle of the Torrent is better than that of the UEF (or seraphim, not sure about the Cybran) battleships because there's a huge chance that a missile will reach the shield generator when the shields are down. The Single shot and long wait of the Battleships don't have this advantage.
As for the damage per missile, I'll have nothing to add.
The AoE: Do you have any idea what the AoE of 5 did? If you do, you'll agree that it was ridiculous. You don't even need the DeathDamage of buildings to blow up an entire base with one salvo. The AoE of 1.5 is more than enough to kill mass extractors and mass storage in one go.

[Ithilis_Quo]

I would still be taking fire and still suffering losses. But most importantly I CANNOT RETURN FIRE.

say my how you will be return fire on battleship 128-150?

My shore based artillery will outrange Battleships and destroyers.

... ahh... how ? you dont has enoght range
http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.p ... 02,UEB2303 how you look you outrange atry in same way like with torrent.
here you has shudle use it anohter time http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/

Wolf you has right that i owerpovered aoe, i know that thats not that important like dmg, but dont know how make it by number. aoe 10K and dmg 1 would not be same like 1000dmg and aeo 0. but in bombardment units its very hight value, when you look on T3 arty that gpg calcul with it. http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.p ... 02,XSB2302 dmg per sec x aoe all is cca 3200 insted of cybran they has 4100
(cheaper and best, another reason why all play cybran) missle ship has similar role like T3 arty bombard bases and armys (more bases like armys) but differences is that ship can move, and when arty cant, then range on statick is many time more signicifant, becase has value on place where can operate, what is not in mobile. Range in mobile has vallue only(or most signicifant) in owerfire another units what then cant fire on that units and be in safe.

that screen you take looks nice, yeah that range looks like significant diferences but only diferencis is cca 5-8sec of moving with cruiser and can fire on same places. It styll would be ourrange all defense like torrent it do. Dont understand why you see this litle time of moving like so big diferences ?

And how many aoe 5 is i exactly know, its brutal big are, its like shot by Emisar, and torrent is like moving emisar, i know it but its T3 and its Aeon.

Aeons has specific position in another fraction. They has (in past has) predisposition to be most powerfull and hardest fraction becase all units has specific role where are best but dont occur in all time, you must know it and handle it. When that situation dont ocuur your units are worst, thats aeon style. Thats reason why they units has bigest price, best aiming, biggest range, bigest dmg, bigest ROF and lovest aoe. Then they units can look most brutal, but they are most brutal only in some situation and on another are very week, like torrent is. When you remove they brute potencial in they specific role you has only average units with no another role and many weakness. weakness what counteract they power in that some situation on what was build. Thats a problem. Not only torrent but all aeons units. All say they are brutal OP but styll no-one play they, and cybran need buff and are most played fraction. Cybran are most versatile, are good (not best) in all situation, aeons are excelent in one and horrible in another situation, and here is will to make average they excelent power in they situation for what was build. And that make they unplaeble in hight rank, becase has many weakness and no real power. Do you understand what i want to say?

[Hawkei]

I would still be taking fire and still suffering losses. But most importantly I CANNOT RETURN FIRE.

say my how you will be return fire on battleship 128-150?

My shore based artillery will outrange Battleships and destroyers.

... ahh... how ? you dont has enoght range
http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.p ... 02,UEB2303 how you look you outrange atry in same way like with torrent.
here you has shudle use it anohter time http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/

You are using the statistics for the UEF battleship. I was refering to the Aeon Omen Class battleship. As this would be the alternative vessel to the Torrent Class, which is an Aeon vessel.

Even when you consider the Shore breaching power of the UEF Battleship it will have difficulty because of the firing cycle and shield regeneration. It can out range T2 shore based artillery. But it will not outrange T2 tactical missile launchers, it has poor missile defence. A bank of TML firing volleys can effectively deal with any stationary battleships. So the formation must be kept mobile (which of course they cannot do while focusing fire).

The battleships also have no real AA to speak of and because they need to be that much closer to land, and mobile, that could bring them out of cover from their escorts. Which makes them vunerable to Torpeedo bomber runs, strategic bombers and hovercraft attacks.

Against a properly defended shoreline, even battleship assaults can be made a difficult proposition. Such that the naval player needs to amass a huge collection of high value warships, in a confined sea. Which of course presents the perfect target for T3 missiles (nukes).

[Ithilis_Quo]

??? About what you are talking?
http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.p ... 06,UES0302
UEF battleship 2anti-missile on 2sec, = can destroic cca 4misiles
aeon battleship 2anti-misile on 4 sec = can destroi cca 2 misile
torent 0anti-misile, few hp destroed by 3 tml,
battleship whitout def 9tml, with def, and no move with 13tml, thats 2340mass only for missile, and 13000 for lancher, what dont happend when move, what not hard.

That is a real argue for that torrent is good enought and battleship suck ?
battleship has no real AA, has cca 60, but torrent has 0, and 1/4 hp of battleship!!

Such that the naval player needs to amass a huge collection of high value warships

yes that is, but price of torrent is same!! (-1000mass)

[Hawkei]

??? About what you are talking?
http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.p ... 06,UES0302
UEF battleship 2anti-missile on 2sec, = can destroic cca 4misiles
aeon battleship 2anti-misile on 4 sec = can destroi cca 2 misile
torent 0anti-misile, few hp destroed by 3 tml,
battleship whitout def 9tml, with def, and no move with 13tml, thats 2340mass only for missile, and 13000 for lancher, what dont happend when move, what not hard.

That is a real argue for that torrent is good enought and battleship suck ?
battleship has no real AA, has cca 60, but torrent has 0, and 1/4 hp of battleship!!

Such that the naval player needs to amass a huge collection of high value warships

yes that is, but price of torrent is same!! (-1000mass)

Do you have ANY in-game experience whatsoever? UEF Battleship TMD SUCKS!!!! Yes it has 2 TMD units, each of which are on 2 seond fire intervals. But they are positioned one on the Port side, and one to starbord. They only cover 180 degree sectors. So the ship will only be able to use one of it's TMDs, because only one will face the launcher. You should also note that the shot does 1 damage, and it takes 2 shots to kill a missile from a TML. The Summits TMD is little more than a token feature. It will not deal with the magnitude of the missile strike that would be directed against it.

A Summit must be protected by Governor Cruisers for TMD, and Bulwarks to take fire. But the Governor TMD works on a hard kill system. Which is vunerable to being overloaded by large missile strikes. The Summit being closer means there will be less sea space to interpose defensive ships.

Just to show you how silly your comment is, The Omen class battle ship has a Wil-O-Whisp style TMD, which launches a decoy flare from the middile of the ship. This decoy flare works in exactly the same way as the Aeons' Infinity class cruiser. The TMD DPS is misleading because the Omen can sucessfuly decoy several missiles at the same time. The Omen TMD is significantly better than the Summit.

If you review these stats here. http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.php?bp=XAS0306,UAB2108 You will find that the TML will outrange a Torrent. With 256 range, against 200. Admittedly the Torrent has no TMD. BUt because it has a range of 200, that is and extra 50 distance units, in which a fleet comprising Infinity class cruisers, which DO have TMD, can be positioned. THAT is what you don't understand.

I am begining to think you just throw out these comments without thinking. They don't seem tempered with game experience and you come acress as totally disrepectful. Especially people are not trying to upset you. They are trying to help you by telling you why you are wrong.

[Ithilis_Quo]

You must be troll, thats not another explanation. When you are argue about you can destroi battleship with TML what torrent cant, then its wrong becase torent dont has any TMD, and battleship has 2, not the besst but styll has, and cruiser has and torrent not. And when you think that can destroy any ships on 150range by TML you are wrong. You use 2340 mass for one salve, what in 90% end in water. And previous u use 13 000 mass for build TML for destroing somthing like you has wretched chance on succeed.

Look, you has 600 rating, the most of custom games what you are playing is named "game only for noobs"
Thats ok, somone must has lower rating, thats nothing wrong about that, but dont tell my that i need some game experience. I play thousands game. All what you are telling is not real argue, about problem what i try resolve. You are telling about range benefit, that bonus range whats useless, or by TML whats useless, or by another ships etc.. Its nothing what is about uncomparability T3 missle ships with T2missleships(cruiser) or T3 batleship.

[Gorton]

Ithilis: You're being the troll here. You're completely ignoring what people are actually saying.
The range on the torrent allows it to significantly outrange any ground based fire save tml, and because of the extra range on it, many many cruisers can be sat in the way to prevent any and all tm from hitting. It's a safety thing.
They are also useful against naval factories and naval defences; you can sit them far away and do serious damage without the risk of the opposing navy attacking (if they do, you're so far away you can escape and make sure your torrents are safe) Again, safety.

Aeon is a faction where multiple units are supposed to work together for a goal. Torrents achieve one thing well; bombardment from long range, but need support from others to do this.

Edit because I can't spell

[Titanicium]

Ithilis_Quo: I am not the one with the most written posts at all (just found the forum so haven't got much time to write) but I have been playing Supreme commander since it's first game back in 2006. And well there is one thing I can say with complete confidence:

In the first game I could turtle against any naval force that was sent towards me and there was no way anything could break my line But in the second game with the arrival of the Torrent missile ships my face just went Because they outranged everything else than TML (T3 arty is just massive waste against them cause of their inaccuracy so they kind of doesn't count And really: Nuking naval is kind of mad )

I found myself in the position that I could no longer turtle at all when I was against a Aeon player on a water map (much cause of those damn hover capabilities of Aeon to ) and since I love the UEF and normally play as them I just found myself raped by the Aeon Because if you play as UEF and see 1 or 2 Torrents worth of missiles shooting at your base then this is your reaction: NOOOOOOOO!

I have not played against them in their current nerfed condition but they are sure to still be a pain with their range so from a UEF perspective: Nerf them even more

And one more thing: This is not to be offensive at all but just a tip It would greatly help your odds of convincing us if you wrote a bit more understandable Because it is kind of a major pain reading your current arguments...

[Hawkei]

:) You must be troll, thats not another explanation. When you are argue about you can destroi battleship with TML what torrent cant, then its wrong becase torent dont has any TMD, and battleship has 2, ...

Look, you has 600 rating, the most of custom games what you are playing is named "game only for noobs" ...but dont tell my that i need some game experience. I play thousands game... You are telling about range benefit, that bonus range whats useless... Its nothing what is about uncomparability...

1) I am not trolling. I am trying to engage in an open and frank conversation
2) Whether or not a T3 ship has TMD is a non-issue. Their organic TMD is not sufficient to save it from a TML strike, (with the sole exception of the Omen Class). T2 Cruisers will be required in all cases.
3) The discussion on TML is relevant because they are a counter in the specific scenarios where the Torrent Class ship is likely to be employed. So they have a direct bearing on this conversation.
4) Yes TML salvos are expensive, and the missiles are non-tracking. They are however capable of destroying their targets, provided your opponent is not paying attention... But if you are in a shore defence scenario then your "balls are on the chopping block". A player defending their shoreline against T3 ships will loose a lot if they fail. TML are expensive, but sometimes, they are the only option.
5) I made reference to your in-game experience. I did not make reference to your rank (or your English). I made those comments because you seem to be drawing these arguments from the unitDB and not from actually having used these units in game.
6) Saying that a persons assertions have no merit because of their rank is a stupid way to argue. If I am wrong please confine your self to stating how and why. I will extend to you the same courtesy.
7) ... and for your information. My score is not 600. My ladder score is about 1100 and my multi-player score is 1400. If I attempted to join those noob games, as you suggest, I would be kicked out because my score is too high.

Unless you have something new to add, this conversation is finished.