fix another reclaim exploit

[Vmcsnekke]

The "reclaim exploit" thread (see:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3376)
fixes the problem of knocking down trees to reclaim way more
(with more engies) than groups of trees.

As ZLO_RD already (vaguely) mentions here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3376&p=35264#p35264
there is still one reclaim problem left.

With correct micro.. (call it: "reclaim micro") one can "fast reclaim"
groups of trees. This gives 500/1000% more reclaim than normal reclaim
(individual trees that is).

All decent Setons air players know this and use it.
I use it too (one has to), but it is time for this to end.

Yesterday, silver_eye used it (as UEF). It seems it is
even better to fast reclaim trees than to build mexes!

The advantage is huge, since it can be done so early.
It also makes the reclaim on the battelfield (after having
invested in an army, and won the battle) less important.

I think this is another reclaim exploit which is to be avoided.

I am kindly asking pip/ZeP (and the balance team) to include
the following fix (which I can provide) in patch 3626:

old code:
...
Evergreen/Props/Trees/Oak01_s1_prop.bp: ReclaimEnergyMax = 8,
Evergreen/Props/Trees/Oak01_s1_prop.bp: ReclaimMassMax = 0.8,
Evergreen/Props/Trees/Oak01_s1_prop.bp: ReclaimTime = 5,
...
Evergreen/Props/Trees/Groups/Oak01_Group1_prop.bp: ReclaimEnergyMax = 64,
Evergreen/Props/Trees/Groups/Oak01_Group1_prop.bp: ReclaimMassMax = 6.4,
Evergreen/Props/Trees/Groups/Oak01_Group1_prop.bp: ReclaimTime = 5,
Evergreen/Props/Trees/Groups/Oak01_Group2_prop.bp: ReclaimEnergyMax = 80,
Evergreen/Props/Trees/Groups/Oak01_Group2_prop.bp: ReclaimMassMax = 8,
Evergreen/Props/Trees/Groups/Oak01_Group2_prop.bp: ReclaimTime = 5,


new code:
...
Evergreen/Props/Trees/Oak01_s1_prop.bp: ReclaimEnergyMax = 8,
Evergreen/Props/Trees/Oak01_s1_prop.bp: ReclaimMassMax = 0.8,
Evergreen/Props/Trees/Oak01_s1_prop.bp: ReclaimTime = 5,
...
Evergreen/Props/Trees/Groups/Oak01_Group1_prop.bp: ReclaimEnergyMax = 64,
Evergreen/Props/Trees/Groups/Oak01_Group1_prop.bp: ReclaimMassMax = 6.4,
Evergreen/Props/Trees/Groups/Oak01_Group1_prop.bp: ReclaimTime = 40,
Evergreen/Props/Trees/Groups/Oak01_Group2_prop.bp: ReclaimEnergyMax = 80,
Evergreen/Props/Trees/Groups/Oak01_Group2_prop.bp: ReclaimMassMax = 8,
Evergreen/Props/Trees/Groups/Oak01_Group2_prop.bp: ReclaimTime = 50,


(this for all reclaimable units)

So reclaiming groups of trees takes way more time. It takes as much time
as reclaiming the same resources through individual trees.

[rootbeer23]

smart engineer movement is no different than smart combat unit movement.
you have to do it to compete... well you have to do a lot of things to compete.
and it also makes more sense than the old reclaim bug.
i suggest you play sandbox a little.
after all, there is not much else you can do in the first 3 minutes of a setons game.
lastly: if silver_eye beat you that means silver_eye is OP, not the trees.
give us a replay.

[Ze_PilOt]

Make sense that if a tree take 5 to be reclaimed, 10 trees should take 50. No replay needed for doing a multiplication

[Vmcsnekke]

Thanks ZeP, I will submit a fix asap. If you include it in balance testing I
will test it and report back in this thread. This may take some days, since my
time is limited.

@root
It is not "smart engineer movement", it is a "reclaim trick" which gives
a significant advantage (on maps with trees).
Why would there be 2 ways of reclaiming trees in the first place ?
And if so, why would one way give 500-1000% more than the other ?
Can you reclaim the ultimate reclaimables (= wreckages) in two ways ?

Smart combat movement is something totally different. It is a totally known,
legitimate and understandable way of making your army stronger.

To watch reply, use replay vault to see my setons game from yesterday
against heze/TAG_silver_eye (I was with MisterWHITE).

[rootbeer23]

Can you reclaim the ultimate reclaimables (= wreckages) in two ways ?

1) patrol
2) engi attack move
3) factory attack move
4) manual reclaim

are you saying you are gonna forbid manual reclaiming now, because it is a "reclaim trick"?

Smart combat movement is something totally different. It is a totally known,
legitimate and understandable way of making your army stronger.

so certain forms of reclaiming cannot be known and understood?
how can you talk about something that you do not know?

are you saying that somebody who wants to play a game seriously and
competetively cannot be required to pick up tricks? how long did you need
to figure it out?

well i dont want to be all negative here:
factory attack move and manual reclaim and tree group reclaim are a good thing,
if you want a complex game and be able to learn new stuff continously for a long time.
i see no reason to make the game simpler for everybody.
and i find it legit to get reclaim quicker if i invest the time to do it smart.
i and like optimizing my engineers. you dont and now i die of boredom in the first
3 minutes.
losing against silver_eye is not sufficient proof that tree group reclaim gives a major/unfair
advantage.

[Vmcsnekke]

Can you reclaim the ultimate reclaimables (= wreckages) in two ways ?

1) patrol
2) engi attack move
3) factory attack move
4) manual reclaim

are you saying you are gonna forbid manual reclaiming now, because it is a "reclaim trick"?

Ofc that is not what I meant.
Let me put it more simply: Can you reclaim the ultimate reclaimables in two ways,
such that one gives 500/1000% resources than the other (in the same amount of time) ?

Smart combat movement is something totally different. It is a totally known,
legitimate and understandable way of making your army stronger.

so certain forms of reclaiming cannot be known and understood?
how can you talk about something that you do not know?

indeed, fast reclaiming is not known to everyone. It is not intuitive at all
(and also map specific).

are you saying that somebody who wants to play a game seriously and
competetively cannot be required to pick up tricks? how long did you need
to figure it out?

yes, not *this* trick, it does not belong to the game.
I figured it out quite some time ago, I know how it works... but that is not the point.

well i dont want to be all negative here:
factory attack move and manual reclaim and tree group reclaim are a good thing,
if you want a complex game and be able to learn new stuff continously for a long time.
i see no reason to make the game simpler for everybody.
and i find it legit to get reclaim quicker if i invest the time to do it smart.
i and like optimizing my engineers. you dont and now i die of boredom in the first
3 minutes.
losing against silver_eye is not sufficient proof that tree group reclaim gives a major/unfair
advantage.

I can understand your opinion, but I strongly disagree.
If you want an (eco) advantage.. use the proper ways to do it (e.g. drop arties),
dont let a reclaim trick be decisive.
lol, I did not lose.... go watch the replay (Replay UID : 1067098).

[Vmcsnekke]

Here is the fix.

Fix Description:

Avoid "fast reclaim" exploit, so no matter how something is reclaimed,
it will always give the same amount of mass/energy per time.
This means reclaiming a group of trees (at once) is much slower now.

NOTE:
I did not try this yet, so I don't know it if works ok. If reclaiming
groups of trees is ridiculously slow now, we might want to reduce the
resources on group reclaims (and decrease the ReclaimTime accordingly
or even further).

[Crotalus]

Maybe test the patch before posting it?

There's a risk this change will make the return of the infamous scout run in the forest, because I rather have small trickles of reclaim than risking stalling the engineers at some tree blob which then returns same mass after 10x the time.

Maybe find some kind of middleway where it's not worth to avoid splitting tree (or the other way around). It may be that this already is the case with this patch but I guess it needs some testing

[ZLO_RD]

the way i abuse tree reclime micro is to get power from it, and it helps to keep eco going without much t1 power and go straight to t2 power and just look at the replay and my score just skyrocking cause of fast reclime
(note that is a old replay and trees are not fixed yet, so you have twice more mass and power for slow reclime)

can't help you with solution

In this replay i was abusing things on purpose to show you them, and hope you can fix it.
download/file.php?id=1577
(also corsair abusage in this replay, note that i bring flack with corsairs, so even t3 air have trouble to counter them)

[rootbeer23]

well what can i say. you have a patch and zep thinks this thread is about multiplication.
i am not gonna argue against the odds.
so go ahead, remove yet another legitimate game feature.
i'll have the last laugh when you'll have a preindustrial economy and no excuse left.