MML Eversong + Ithisah: hoplite/mongoose counter

[Ithilis_Quo]

This would be solution what would fix a aeon and sera problem with countering hoplite/mongoose.

This is quite unorthodox, so take it like idea what would be reworked and not ready-made solution.
This path was try fix this problem with increase Blase and Yenzi better speed to 3,7->4 but in reality it doesnt help, its very similar like it was before and still has nothing to counter hoplite. My suggestion is make this couter MML, Do not be outraget i explain it:

Eversong has 10sec rate of fire, thats the higher (worst) Ihisah has 6,7, thats not so goot for using for missile spam like it can make viper or spearhead but can fix our problem with hoplite/mongoose.

Suggestion
Eversong and Ithisah would has button for changing fire mode (like has sera sniper bot) for changing missile to homing missile. (the best icone would be icon what has cybran T1 AA sky slammer) Of course homing MML would be incredible OP so then this mode need nerf, and that nerf will be range decrease 60->40 and firing randomness 2 (im not sure about this value).

price mongose/hoplite and mml is same mass cost and energy cost has mml +50%, range its on 3/6 better for MML but is slower 3,6 vs 2,7. so hoplite can go near and fire mmld would has in this mode firing randomness so it don't hit all time. when this solution it would be ideal counter for hoplite/mongoose units for same price.

What you think about that ?
Constructive critic please.

[Hawkei]

Suggestion
Eversong and Ithisah would has button for changing fire mode (like has sera sniper bot) for changing missile to homing missile. (the best icone would be icon what has cybran T1 AA sky slammer) Of course homing MML would be incredible OP so then this mode need nerf, and that nerf will be range decrease 60->40 and firing randomness 2 (im not sure about this value).

price mongose/hoplite and mml is same mass cost and energy cost has mml +50%, range its on 3/6 better for MML but is slower 3,6 vs 2,7. so hoplite can go near and fire mmld would has in this mode firing randomness so it don't hit all time. when this solution it would be ideal counter for hoplite/mongoose units for same price.

What you think about that ?
Constructive critic please.

Making the MML an effective counter to Ranged bots is a good idea. However, as it currently stands, the Mongoose and Hoplite have sufficiently low rate of fire that they pose no significant threat. They are a greater threat to the Aeon, who due to low HP, fair badly against these units. The standard Aeon response is to get mobile shields and tank the damage. The Sera response is to get their equivallent T2 bot.

You should also bear in mind. Both Seraphim and Aeon have access to sniper bots in T3. Which are hard counters to these units. A sniper bot will 1 shot kill a T2 bot and has far superior range. So if as Aeon or Sera, I faced heavy T2 bot spam, I would use sniper bots. Sniper bots not used much, because, not many Cybran or UEF players spam the T2 bot. Mainly because they are hard to use effectively.

As far as Evensong are concerned, this MML is unique. You will notice that it has half the firing rate - which is why it is generally considered the worst MML. However, the missiles do twice the damage, the muzzle velocity is higher and the projectile arc lower. These last 3 statistics make the Evensong the "most capable" MML for countering bots. However, the MML is a stop gap measure and an artillery platform. One would not want to make it too effective.

My Suggestion
My recommended change would be to make the Evensong more effective by tweaking these values slightly. I would like to see the muzzle velocity increased. The firing randomness increased and a small area damage effect applied to all MML projectiles. I would implement the projectile speed increase for Aeon only, but implement the firing randomness and AoE for all faction MML's (Flapjack, Viper, and whatever the heck the Sera one is called ).

Response to Your Suggestion
If you were to do as you suggest. By returning the homing projectile. I would maintain the firing range. But I would reduce the weapon cycle time - so that it's homing DPS is reduced. I would also insist that the MML need to deploy with this firing mode. It should not be able to fire homing missiles while moving.

Actually, the homing deploy feature would be cool It would give the MML a secondary function as a kind of area denial weapon. But the DPS really does need to be cut right down, and they need some randomness (or loss of homing) on the terminal approach - so you can still dodge the missile. Otherwise, they would be OP.

***

BTW: If you're thinking of returning homing projectiles to MML units. What about the T3 missile sub? (I always had fun ambushing destroyers with squadrons of missile subs they used to be cool). But in SCFA and FAF, it is currently useless as an anti-surface weapon. Which is one of the uses it had in Vanilla SupCom. Would you consider implementing a similar firing mode for this unit as well?

[The Mak]

What about instead of tracking it leads its target. This way you can have a sort of tracking but you can dodge the missiles if you do some basic micro.

[pip]

MML leading target is completely OP. MML homing = even more OP. Currently, MML tracks target location (it tracks where the unit was). I experimented with these possibilities in the test mod, it's super easy to make things too strong.

The only thing that can work and not be OP is to increase the speed of projectile, so it's harder to dodge them. I tried to give this ability to Aeon MML at the time, but nobody really cared about it / or didn't think it worked significantly enough, so the idea was dropped plain and simple.

[Hawkei]

The only thing that can work and not be OP is to increase the speed of projectile, so it's harder to dodge them...

That's exactly what I was proposing in my previous post ^^

I tried to give this ability to Aeon MML at the time, but nobody really cared about it / or didn't think it worked significantly enough, so the idea was dropped plain and simple.

Well I haven't seen the results, but this would have my vote.

Question: Pip have you considered increasing the missile randomness, and giving it a small AoE damage? In combination with the faster projectile, it would achieve better (but not OP) results against T2 bots, and T1 hordes. That could be the effect you're looking for.

[pip]

The only thing that can work and not be OP is to increase the speed of projectile, so it's harder to dodge them...

That's exactly what I was proposing in my previous post ^^

I tried to give this ability to Aeon MML at the time, but nobody really cared about it / or didn't think it worked significantly enough, so the idea was dropped plain and simple.

Well I haven't seen the results, but this would have my vote.

Question: Pip have you considered increasing the missile randomness, and giving it a small AoE damage? In combination with the faster projectile, it would achieve better (but not OP) results against T2 bots, and T1 hordes. That could be the effect you're looking for.

The problem is that if it's not fast enough, it's hard to make it efficient against moving targets. If it's too fast, TMD can't work well anymore. If you increase AOE and make them fast, they will be super hard to counter. As for slow and AOE, that's a Nomad feature, so no way it's stolen by other faction

[Zock]

As pip said, we had this idea already. I don't belive its impossible to archive (if technical limitations can be bypassed), but not easy to get it balanced.

This patch focuses on finetuning though, so this would be a bit too huge change.

[Hawkei]

As pip said, we had this idea already. I don't belive its impossible to archive (if technical limitations can be bypassed), but not easy to get it balanced.

This patch focuses on finetuning though, so this would be a bit too huge change.

No worries. This isn't exactly high on my list of requests. There are a lot more important things that need to be got right. GL with it.

[Ithilis_Quo]

Buf hoplite/mongoose counter is important think sera cant counter holite with stealt field, and shield its not so big help, when you tanks are slow.

As far as Evensong are concerned, this MML is unique. You will notice that it has half the firing rate - which is why it is generally considered the worst MML. However, the missiles do twice the damage, the muzzle velocity is higher and the projectile arc lower. These last 3 statistics make the Evensong the "most capable" MML for countering bots. However, the MML is a stop gap measure and an artillery platform. One would not want to make it too effective.

it need change button, at now they are ussles against tower defense. 1 TMD and you need 5-6 eversng(3viper make it better) for beat it.. its stupid. and when we on this take random firing it would be extremly ussles on structure more like is, and its hard imagine to badest it can be

Whats wrong in homing? It cost same mass, its less effective on army like hoplite is. Its slower and hit one units when hit. it would be like slower and worster bot who is possible counter them. it will be counter with faste units (all units are faster) or with another hoplite. maybe will need little less hp.
But when argue that hoplite can be counter with fast unit that it must work on this too. (or not?)

I play many game when can do nothing against hoplite spamm. Only chance was try to go on T3 but then i lose map control and enemy has so many hoplite that i can beat them with T3too ther are extremly effective. I try beat them by Blaze (what wana be counter) but take 0dmg on microed hoplite. and blaze cost more

[PsychoBoB]

This patch focuses on finetuning though, so this would be a bit too huge change.

I agree with Zock here. A MML should not be a counter to any moving target.

But nevertheless the Evensong needs a buff. In another thread i suggested to double the hp of the missiles.
I think this is only a small change that's worth a try.