Naval Factories

[BRNKoINSANITY]

I am not 100% sure if this fits in to the discussion on engy mod, so ZeP feel free to get rid of this post if you so wish

Naval factories -> In keeping with the spirit of rebalancing the engineers and factories so that t1 engy spam is no longer completely necessary, I think that the naval factories need more build power. Currently, a Salem takes over 4 minutes to build unassisted, and as such you simply can't rely on more factories to build a navy. From the time you upgrade your HQ, there is still a 4 minute gap till you have t2 navy on the field. From my point of view the t2 navy is roughly equivalent economy wise to t3 land, and no one has ever had a problem with the Percy drawing 16 mass. The Salem only draws 9, so perhaps the buildpower could be adjusted so that it draws closer to 15-16? Perhaps even 20 mass per second so that Salems built in 2 minutes. As things stand, not heavily assisting naval factories means that you can't get enough ships into the water to gain or even hold ground regardless of your economy.

Just my two cents... It would be really nice to see a sea without 200 engineers in it, just like now you can have a clean patch of ground and still be pushing max eco on either land or air.

[FunkOff]

I think naval build times are a little off. T3 naval build times were reduced because they use to be so horrible, but T2 and T1 naval build times were all left the same. The result now is one battleships costs as much as 4 destroyers but about as fast as 2.

Give that frigates have 5 build time per mass, destroyers have ~5 build time per mass, and battleships have ~3 build time per mass, and most land units have 4-5.... we should probably reduce T2 navy to around 4 build time per mass.... so the destroyer would go from 10000 build time to 9000.

[Nombringer]

I agree, when I actually get the time to post all the replays I've been promising, I've found that the most effective way in engie mod, seems to be multiple factories assisted by a few engies (10-20).

With more engies you start to run into pathfinding issues, that actually makes them much less effective, and brink has already pointed out the ineffectiveness of unassisted factories.

[pip]

Funk is right, this is not related with engy mod, but with the too high buildtimes of t2 naval units, that have never been adjusted as t3 were. The buildtimes of all t2 naval units should be reduced by around 15%.

[Zock]

T3 Navy Factory BP got adjusted, for T2 i wasn't sure if its needed and wanted to hear some more opinions.

As the frig/t2 ship balance is quite good, a t2 ship BT decrease would mess with this a bit, and a BP buff on factories not so much.

I'd go for a 50% BP increase, and see if its enough.

[pip]

+ 25% (50 bp) should be plenty enough.

[Neojacques]

+ 25% (50 bp) should be plenty enough.

Adjust the values ​​have to be initial two technologies:
Naval T1 in 15%
Naval T2 in 15%

[Hawkei]

I would rather increase the build power of the factory; rather then the build time of the unit. In which case, the build time, mass cost and energy cost of the factory itself should be increased - prorata on a T1 engineer basis. Essentially what you would do is put the engineers "inside" the factory, and increase the cost of the factory by that same ammount.

Which means:
T1 engineer = 52m + 260e + 260bt + 5bp + 120hp

* (bp = build power, m = mass, e = energy, bt = build time, hp = hit points)

To account for the different build times at T2 and T3, and have them pumping out at a similar rate to a T1 sea factory. We need a build power of 100 at T2 and a whopping 300 At T3!

New stats would therefore be as follows:
T2 Sea fac = 1794m + 8520e + 4920bt + 100bp + 17440hp (Aeon)
T3 Sea fac = 7750m + 36400e + 20200bt + 300bp + 43500hp (Aeon)

I have actually been developing a mod, on my own, which has a secondary upgrade path for build power. Essentially, in my mod, you add build power with another upgrade... A similar adjustment could be made to the factories in engie mod - because lets face it. 40 Build power for a T2 factory, or 60 for T3 is pretty pathetic. Similar adjustments can also be made for land and air factories as well. I can post the figures if anyone is interested.

Note - of course there are upsides and downsides vs engineer assisting.
Pros: Your build power is less suceptible to raiding. You also get the advantage of adjacency applied to the full build power.
Cons: Your build power is less flexible, and cannot be used for Experimentals and special projects.

PS: This is what is required to pump units out at the same rate to T1. If a slightly lower rate were desired, the changes could be made less drastic. But still: Cost needs to be factored into the factories build power change. To make it balance with T1 engie spam. The exact build powers would be a matter for in game testing.

[Cuddles]

I would rather increase the build power of the factory; rather then the build time of the unit. In which case, the build time, mass cost and energy cost of the factory itself should be increased - prorata on a T1 engineer basis. Essentially what you would do is put the engineers "inside" the factory, and increase the cost of the factory by that same ammount.

Which means:
T1 engineer = 52m + 260e + 260bt + 5bp + 120hp

* (bp = build power, m = mass, e = energy, bt = build time, hp = hit points)

To account for the different build times at T2 and T3, and have them pumping out at a similar rate to a T1 sea factory. We need a build power of 100 at T2 and a whopping 300 At T3!

New stats would therefore be as follows:
T2 Sea fac = 1794m + 8520e + 4920bt + 100bp + 17440hp (Aeon)
T3 Sea fac = 7750m + 36400e + 20200bt + 300bp + 43500hp (Aeon)

I have actually been developing a mod, on my own, which has a secondary upgrade path for build power. Essentially, in my mod, you add build power with another upgrade... A similar adjustment could be made to the factories in engie mod - because lets face it. 40 Build power for a T2 factory, or 60 for T3 is pretty pathetic. Similar adjustments can also be made for land and air factories as well. I can post the figures if anyone is interested.

Note - of course there are upsides and downsides vs engineer assisting.
Pros: Your build power is less suceptible to raiding. You also get the advantage of adjacency applied to the full build power.
Cons: Your build power is less flexible, and cannot be used for Experimentals and special projects.

PS: This is what is required to pump units out at the same rate to T1. If a slightly lower rate were desired, the changes could be made less drastic. But still: Cost needs to be factored into the factories build power change. To make it balance with T1 engie spam. The exact build powers would be a matter for in game testing.

But that way your factory takes forever to build vs building the factory and adding engies as they come out and you build a ship all the time.

[Hawkei]

But that way your factory takes forever to build vs building the factory and adding engies as they come out and you build a ship all the time.

That is true. Whether or not it is quicker depends on exactly how the factory is constructed and assisted. The BP+ factories would be upgraded slower than a factory that is assisted by engineers spammed from a nearby factory. They are also 2 minutes slower than a stock standard factory unassisted. It is only 0.5 min slower than a factory that builds its own assisting engineers.

The disadvantage comes from not getting the build power until the upgrade is completed (just like a mex). But there is a build time advantage, because there is no down time caused by unit roll off.

Here are the stock standard statistics for factories:
T1 = 300bt + 20bp
T2 = 1800bt + 40bp
T3 = 7200bt + 60bp
T1Engie = 260bt + 5bp

Here are example figures from my mod:
T1 = 300bt + 20bp
T2 = 4720bt + 100bp
T3 = 12480bt + 300bp

Standard Upgrade Time T1 >> T2 >> T3
= (1800-300)/20 + (7200-1800)/40
= 210 s = 3.5 min

Modified Upgrade Time T1 >> T2 >> T3
= (4720-300)/20 + (12480-4720)/100
= 299 s = 5 min

Standard Upgrade Time (with assist) T1 >> 48 T1 Engineers >> T2 >> T3
= n(EngieBT/(FacBP+EngieBP*n/2)+Roll off) + (FacT2BT-FacBT)/(FacBP+48*EngieBP) + (FacT3BT-FacT2BT)/(FacT2BP+48*EngieBP)
= 48*(260/(20+5*48/2)+3) + (1800-300)/(20+48*5) + (7200+1800)/(40+48*5)
= 271 s = 4.5 min

So there is a 30 second difference. However, considering all the added benefits, and the reduced micro. I would say this might be worth it. If it were assisted to T2 by the engineers that built it, it would actually be faster. As shown below.

Modified Upgrade Time (with 1 builder assisting to T2) T1 >> T2 >> T3
= (4720-300)/25 + (12480-4720)/100
= 254 s = 4.2 min
With only 1 T1 engineer assisting the first upgrade, it is now quicker than the conventional factory that must build assisting engineers!

However, with all this, it still cannot compete with the exponential increase of a nearby factory spamming T1 engies. It does however have significantly less clutter, less micro, is not so easily sniped. It has less units for your graphics card to render.