LABs are demonstrably UP

[Anaryl]

There is an expectation amongst that most units of the same type should be able, at least with some micro, be able to destroy their own weight in mass. Most units health and costs are direct factor of improvement over their predeceasing equivalent.

For some reason, people have not noticed that LABs are able to compete against other units in anywhere near approaching their mass.
Labs cannot compete with tanks in mass. It is considered you need 3 minimum to destroy one tank, 2x the cost to take on it's nearest predecessor.

LABs don't counter anything, nor does their short range allow them to skirmish effectively versus tanks (a la Gatling/Rocket bots), nor is their speed worth the additional cost (consider t1 arty costs close to what a LAB does in mass, and how effective a unit it is all game).

LABs are not useful (excluding ghettos - a niche) past the first minute outside one rare context. Given that the only way to get LABs to deal damage to anything significant is put them in a transport and make them fly.

I recommend:
- 3/4 HP boost
- range increase to 24
- RoF - varying decrease, depending on the weapons profile of the faction


Those are just some of the ideas I had in my re LABs right now.

[ColonelSheppard]

LABs counter early engys=?

[Anaryl]

Anything counters early engys, and bombers can do it multiple times from the air, and stay relavent later in the game, the same goes for tanks. LABs areuseful for one minute before being almost completely shelved for the rest of the game.

[IceDreamer]

I agree, but I think the best change would be to keep to the role. Perhaps a small HP boost, or some other change, but primarily just up the speed until it's a fair tradoff. I would REALLY use the things if they had double their current speed, that would enable some obscenely fast raiding trips and superb unpredictability.

EDIT: A second thought. We could keep their current role as first or second unit built very, very early. At this point in the game, resource drain doesn't matter at all, the total amount does. With this in mind, you could easily nuke the BuildTime, say, down to just 25% of what it is now. This would mean the LAB comes out REALLY fast, gets moving faster, and actually gives it a unique niche, that of a first response unit to a surprise attack or whatever, that you can build in an emergency when you need something, anything with a gun, but you need it RIGHT NOW.

[rootbeer23]

LAB vision: 18
t1 tank vision: 20
t1 scout radar: 45

suggestion: increase LAB vision radius to 25

[Nombringer]

The problem is that two microd labs still have trouble killing a tank.

That being I still use them as cybran, but only as first second or third unit out of my factory

[FunkOff]

I agree that LABs are somewhat UP: As you said, they have two functions, killing helpless engineers in the early game and use as GGs.

- 3/4 HP boost

This is what LABs were like in early supcom beta and they were horrendously overpowered, to the point that T1 hunter spam was literally the entire game in 1v1. There were no other factions (Cybran's hunter was the best) and there were no other units worth building. Suffice it to say, let's not go back to that.

- range increase to 24
- RoF - varying decrease, depending on the weapons profile of the faction

Not necessarily bad ideas, but unproven and possibly OP.

One interesting idea I saw used awhile back to great effect was to double the DPS and halve the range on LABs. This would allow them to keep their primary role now (murder or helpless engineers) but also let them beat other units in small numbers. Also, because they would have more DPS per cost than tanks, they would be a more ideal raider all through-out tech 1, but still lose horribly to T1 tanks in numbers greater than 10.

[RoundTabler]

I like the build time nerf, coupled with the intel vision range, and/or a speed buff. This sounds like a lot, making it OP, but I think it would work if you kept these buffs as small as possible (25% of current build time seems a lot, as does double speed, which is why a suggest a combo).

[Ato0theJ]

I like the idea of a range increase, being able to kite with hunters or mech marines would mean kiting is no longer an aeon only thing, but with a range of 24, the aurora still has a range advantage. Maybe even 22 to keep the distance from normal tank to lab to aurora.

That or the range nerf coupled with DPS increse, but I'm not sure what this would do to GGs.

[pip]

One interesting idea I saw used awhile back to great effect was to double the DPS and halve the range on LABs. This would allow them to keep their primary role now (murder or helpless engineers) but also let them beat other units in small numbers. Also, because they would have more DPS per cost than tanks, they would be a more ideal raider all through-out tech 1, but still lose horribly to T1 tanks in numbers greater than 10.

That's utterly op. 42 DPS lab = 252 DPS ghetto gunships = Seraphim screwed.

What would help labs without making them op is either a small hp buff so that they can sustain an additional hit from the tanks (+10 or +15 hp) or more speed to distinguish them better from tanks (+0.3/0.4/0.5 speed).
What Anaryl suggested would make them replace tanks in early games and reduce auroras to a joke, and seraphim as well.