unbuilt units

[Zock]

Among other rarly build units there are some that i really never see. I'd propose changes to rhino, strat subs, and the aeon intel upgrade. The last one is actually usefull vs cybran t2, but i think it would be nice if it would be usefull more often. Generaly, i'd like to see not only gun/t2 beeing the only viable earlygame upgrades.

For the rhino, there are imho two roles it can fit well:

a) A heavy (its also called "heavy tank", so i would favor this), slow, strong, very much like the obsidian (mass for mass, 1v1 its cheaper and weaker, but this can aswell change, doesnt matter), a little bit weaker vs t2 (but still good), but stronger vs t1. The wagner would complete it as fast, but not so strong (especcially vs t1) tank.

b) A light t1 killer tank, cheap and fast, but not so good vs t2. The wagner would complete it as expensive t2 killer, also fast. The rhino would compete a little bit with hoplites, another reason why i'd favor a).

Values for a)

- Rhino : 1850 HP, 100 DPS, turret turn speed = 120 (from 90). Speed = 3 (from 3.2) Same veterancy and cost as Wagner (7). (few adjustments made since first post)
-Wagner stays the same as now.

I would like to test theese, i think this won't be the final values however.

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Second, the stratsubs. Their nukes are more expensive then normal nukes and weaker, while a normal nuke can almost always do the same job better. They are good for nuking navys, but i think pip made some nice suggestions that would make them some less crap, without changing them too drasticly.


For all strat subs : standard nuke price (same as nuke launchers, but they still do only 25000 damages per nuke) :
BuildCostEnergy = 1350000 (from 1764000)
BuildCostMass = 12000 (from 16800)
BuildTime = 324000 (from 453600)
- range reduced to 90-400 (from 128-1024)

- Cybran Strat sub : stealth ability added, maintenance = 200, tac missile range increased from 150 to 200
- UEF strat sub : tac missile range increased to 175 (from 128), missile hp increased to 3 (from 2), because it shoots only one missile at a time
- Aeon strat sub : tac missile range increased to 175 (from 128), missile hp increased to 3 (from 2), because it shoots only one missile at a time

Sera Battleship Nuke cost = same as previous strat sub cost:
BuildCostEnergy = 1764000, (from 1920000)
BuildCostMass = 16800 (from 19200)
BuildTime = 453600 (518400)
- Damage Reduced to 25000 (from 70000), same as strat subs
- range of nuke reduced to 90-410 (from 128-1024)


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For the aeon intel upgrade isn't much to say. I'd decrease the cost a lot and see if people would prefer it to the gun upgrade in earlygame sometimes. The upgrade isn't bad afterall, but as long as its almost as expensive as gun, its outclassed.

- Enhanced Sensor Systemcost reduction : mass cost = 400 (from 750), energy cost = 10000 (from 12500), build time = 500 (from 625).

(for compare the somewhat similar cybran stealth: Back Personal Stealth Generator (mass: 350, energy: 5250 (-50), buildtime: 350))


The nano upgrade from uef and sera regen are also not used upgrades, but i can't tell anything about this, nor suggest anything. Pip did, i will just post his ideas here for beeing complete:

Seraphim ACU:
- Restoration field 1 range increased to 22 (from 15) = same as default gun range ; Restoration field level 2 range increased to 30 (from 25)=same as gun upgrade range.
- Chronotron Refractor mass cost reduced to 3500 mass (from 4500), adds 400 damages instead of 300.

UEF ACU:
Nano upgrade : 1000 mass, 40000 energy, 1000 buildtime, 70hp / sec regeneration.

(yes i abuse pips values for the suggestions )

[Crayfish]

Quote from the thread in GenDisc:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4165


STRAT MISSILE SUBS:

I disagree with people saying that Strat Subs should have torps / torp defense etc. I think it should be a super specialized and vulnerable unit that requires stealth and must be protected by the rest of the fleet if it is discovered. To fit with its role and make it actually usefull, some possibilities just off the top of my head.

Toggle-able Personal Stealth:
Do Strat Subs have native stealth now? If not, this has always been the main one for me. Its supposed to be a stealthy, weak armor / combat but deadly indirect strike weapon. This unit should always have had personal stealth imo, it could be on a toggle (off by default) and be extremely energy thirsty (requiring T3 Gens to run it), like the ACU cloaking upgrades. This way you can attack the enemy economy to reveal it.

Make them T4:
Again, Strat Subs are supposed to stealth assasins. They take a long time to build and only come out of T3 naval factories, so makes them relatively easy to scout, which kind of defeats the object. If they were T4 they could be built by T3 Engies/Coms/SCUs anywhere in deep water ala the Atlantis & Tempest making them a bit easier to get into battle unnoticed.

Remove their secondary weaponry / set to hold fire by default:
A sub having Tac missiles is a very cool feature, and would have made for an interesting base assualt unit, but putting this on the Strat Sub actually works against it imo. Tac missiles give away the Subs position, and its an incredibly inefficient Tac missile platform (you can have about 5-6 cruisers for the same price). I can only imagine you would every leave these on free fire if you are at that stage of the game where the enemy cant strike back and u are safe to build Czars and the like. I think the Tac missiles should be set to hold fire by default out of the factory for this reason.

Leave the Nuke range & power as it is:
Strat Subs should not replace static land launchers (with all their associated challenges of protection), they should trade off their weaker attack power and range with their mobility and stealth. See above.

[Anaryl]

Second, the stratsubs. Their nukes are more expensive then normal nukes and weaker, while a normal nuke can almost always do the same job better. They are good for nuking navys, but i think pip made some nice suggestions that would make them some less crap, without changing them too drasticly.


For all strat subs : standard nuke price (same as nuke launchers, but they still do only 25000 damages per nuke) :
BuildCostEnergy = 1350000 (from 1764000)
BuildCostMass = 12000 (from 16800)
BuildTime = 324000 (from 453600)
- range reduced to 90-400 (from 128-1024)

- Cybran Strat sub : stealth ability added, maintenance = 200, tac missile range increased from 150 to 200
- UEF strat sub : tac missile range increased to 175 (from 128), missile hp increased to 3 (from 2), because it shoots only one missile at a time
- Aeon strat sub : tac missile range increased to 175 (from 128), missile hp increased to 3 (from 2), because it shoots only one missile at a time

Sera Battleship Nuke cost = same as previous strat sub cost:
BuildCostEnergy = 1764000, (from 1920000)
BuildCostMass = 16800 (from 19200)
BuildTime = 453600 (518400)
- Damage Reduced to 25000 (from 70000), same as strat subs
- range of nuke reduced to 90-410 (from 128-1024)

I reworked these a while back. I never quite got to finishing them, but the diea was to make the payloads in the SMS much cheaper, and also possibly having a toggle, allowing for seperate types of detonation (airburst, standard, and anti-naval/depth charge) with a significant alpha reduction. I never quite finished all the code, but I can I post it up. What i had trouble with was actually adjusting the costs for the nukes in sub (I had trouble to get them to stick and there wasn't a great deal of interest at thetime)

EDIT@ CRay:

"Remove their secondary weaponry / set to hold fire by default:
A sub having Tac missiles is a very cool feature, and would have made for an interesting base assualt unit, but putting this on the Strat Sub actually works against it imo. Tac missiles give away the Subs position, and its an incredibly inefficient Tac missile platform (you can have about 5-6 cruisers for the same price). I can only imagine you would every leave these on free fire if you are at that stage of the game where the enemy cant strike back and u are safe to build Czars and the like. I think the Tac missiles should be set to hold fire by default out of the factory for this reason."

As I understand, SMS tacs are "full" tac missiles (they do 6k damage per shot) - cruisers do not do the same dmg per shot. But right now, as it stands,

[Crayfish]

As I understand, SMS tacs are "full" tac missiles (they do 6k damage per shot) - cruisers do not do the same dmg per shot. But right now, as it stands,

Ah kk, but my point still stands about the design philosophy. Would you want to reveal your Strat Sub that is holding / building super expensive nuke missiles, for some tac missiles? In a late T3 naval game where the nuke sub would be getting built, I would imagine there would always already be extensive tac missile defence in place.


EDIT:
Also just to add to my point about not increasing their range / attack power.
If you make the sub missiles comprable to the land launched ones, you end up with a situation like with SCU RAS upgrade in vanilla Supcom. You would no longer need to risk building things on land and hide it all under the water. The strat missile subs should always be weaker and less cost efficient than the static land based launchers that have to be protected.

[Ithilis_Quo]

i would like to see this on Star subs, Imho all would have stealth and cybran hight energy cost total invis too (and cybran subs whitout torpedos and take torpedos another frations). Becase thats a position strategy submarine be silent and operate stealth in deep water in end of world.

On aeon ACU intel.
I think that price 350 is still many for that what you take.
I can imagine this intel for 350 mass but take them a small radar too, that would work with range ubgrade. and take him some radar cover (65 like T1 scout)

on Sera ACU field regen
that dont help, we try it on sandbox and ist absoluthli ussles becase only heal is nothing. Only what can help is taking it like it was before or some parth of it (before it was heal on acu too and on 2ubgrade +10% hp boost) Mayby it would be +10%HP on 1ubgr and +15%HP on 2 ubgrade that would make some change on batlfiel and would it be compare with gun.

[pip]

Here are the bp for Zock's changes. The only value that is different from his values is:
UEF nano buildtime = 1400 (instead of 1000).
This is to reduce the energy drain to a more reasonable value (between t2 suite and tac missile). By the way, it's Sheppard's idea, I only provide the energy and buildtime values that he didn't write.

I also added an updated effect template.lua that removes the crazy explosions but keep the good stuff. The poptree.lua should definitely be removed on top of restoring defaultexplosion.lua and unit.lua.

I also added the improved rhino / cerberus fx that looks closer to the previous one.

[Golol]

couldnt check data but it seems like the rhino is just like the current wagner with these changes riht?

[pip]

couldnt check data but it seems like the rhino is just like the current wagner with these changes riht?

That's precisely the point of the change. Only speed and weapon behaviour is different.

[Zock]

Here are the bp for Zock's changes. The only value that is different from his values is:
UEF nano buildtime = 1400 (instead of 1000).
This is to reduce the energy drain to a more reasonable value (between t2 suite and tac missile). By the way, it's Sheppard's idea, I only provide the energy and buildtime values that he didn't write.

I also added an updated effect template.lua that removes the crazy explosions but keep the good stuff. The poptree.lua should definitely be removed on top of restoring defaultexplosion.lua and unit.lua.

I also added the improved rhino / cerberus fx that looks closer to the previous one.

Did you notice i didn't use your values for the aeon intel upgrade, but mine own?

[pip]

Here are the bp for Zock's changes. The only value that is different from his values is:
UEF nano buildtime = 1400 (instead of 1000).
This is to reduce the energy drain to a more reasonable value (between t2 suite and tac missile). By the way, it's Sheppard's idea, I only provide the energy and buildtime values that he didn't write.

I also added an updated effect template.lua that removes the crazy explosions but keep the good stuff. The poptree.lua should definitely be removed on top of restoring defaultexplosion.lua and unit.lua.

I also added the improved rhino / cerberus fx that looks closer to the previous one.

Did you notice i didn't use your values for the aeon intel upgrade, but mine own?

Of course. I put your value. It's a bit low for my taste, but we shall see.