unbuilt units

[Hawkei]

Among other rarly build units there are some that i really never see. I'd propose changes to rhino, strat subs, and the aeon intel upgrade. The last one is actually usefull vs cybran t2, but i think it would be nice if it would be usefull more often. Generaly, i'd like to see not only gun/t2 beeing the only viable earlygame upgrades.

For the rhino, there are imho two roles it can fit well:

a) A heavy (its also called "heavy tank", so i would favor this), slow, strong, very much like the obsidian (mass for mass, 1v1 its cheaper and weaker, but this can aswell change, doesnt matter), a little bit weaker vs t2 (but still good), but stronger vs t1. The wagner would complete it as fast, but not so strong (especcially vs t1) tank.

b) A light t1 killer tank, cheap and fast, but not so good vs t2. The wagner would complete it as expensive t2 killer, also fast. The rhino would compete a little bit with hoplites, another reason why i'd favor a).

Values for a)

- Rhino : 1850 HP, 100 DPS, turret turn speed = 120 (from 90). Speed = 3 (from 3.2) Same veterancy and cost as Wagner (7). (few adjustments made since first post)
-Wagner stays the same as now.

I would like to test theese, i think this won't be the final values however.

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Second, the stratsubs. Their nukes are more expensive then normal nukes and weaker, while a normal nuke can almost always do the same job better. They are good for nuking navys, but i think pip made some nice suggestions that would make them some less crap, without changing them too drasticly.


For all strat subs : standard nuke price (same as nuke launchers, but they still do only 25000 damages per nuke) :
BuildCostEnergy = 1350000 (from 1764000)
BuildCostMass = 12000 (from 16800)
BuildTime = 324000 (from 453600)
- range reduced to 90-400 (from 128-1024)

- Cybran Strat sub : stealth ability added, maintenance = 200, tac missile range increased from 150 to 200
- UEF strat sub : tac missile range increased to 175 (from 128), missile hp increased to 3 (from 2), because it shoots only one missile at a time
- Aeon strat sub : tac missile range increased to 175 (from 128), missile hp increased to 3 (from 2), because it shoots only one missile at a time

Sera Battleship Nuke cost = same as previous strat sub cost:
BuildCostEnergy = 1764000, (from 1920000)
BuildCostMass = 16800 (from 19200)
BuildTime = 453600 (518400)
- Damage Reduced to 25000 (from 70000), same as strat subs
- range of nuke reduced to 90-410 (from 128-1024)


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For the aeon intel upgrade isn't much to say. I'd decrease the cost a lot and see if people would prefer it to the gun upgrade in earlygame sometimes. The upgrade isn't bad afterall, but as long as its almost as expensive as gun, its outclassed.

- Enhanced Sensor Systemcost reduction : mass cost = 400 (from 750), energy cost = 10000 (from 12500), build time = 500 (from 625).

(for compare the somewhat similar cybran stealth: Back Personal Stealth Generator (mass: 350, energy: 5250 (-50), buildtime: 350))


The nano upgrade from uef and sera regen are also not used upgrades, but i can't tell anything about this, nor suggest anything. Pip did, i will just post his ideas here for beeing complete:

Seraphim ACU:
- Restoration field 1 range increased to 22 (from 15) = same as default gun range ; Restoration field level 2 range increased to 30 (from 25)=same as gun upgrade range.
- Chronotron Refractor mass cost reduced to 3500 mass (from 4500), adds 400 damages instead of 300.

UEF ACU:
Nano upgrade : 1000 mass, 40000 energy, 1000 buildtime, 70hp / sec regeneration.

(yes i abuse pips values for the suggestions )

1. TBH, I have always found the Rhino and Wagner role definitions in FA to be a little vague. Futhermore, the role of the Rhino as a T1 killer has some overlap with the Hopplite. The Wagner on the other hand overtook the Rhino in HP and DPS, to effectively become the Cybrans main T2 battle tank. Even though it is amphibious and in contradiction with its implied role as a raiding unit. Perhaps the Rhino, because it is not amphibious, should be re-instated as the main battle tank, for T2 armies. As it stands, the HP need to be increased, and DPS also slightly increased, by increasing the firing rate.

2. As for strategic subs. They were much more useful as a TM Launching platform in Vanilla SC, because, the missiles used to track their targets. Which gave a very interesting naval warfare dynamic of "cat and mouse". With destroyers and T1 subs hunting down T3 missile subs, which could fire from range, and sink the destroyers with their missiles. With non-tracking missiles, T3 missile subs were effectively usless for anti-naval operations. They currently only have a limited application for sniping static targets. Which is not to be underestimated, because they are invunerable to T2 Costal artillery. They can operate within these contested waters, when other bombardment solutions might draw fire... They still have a role, but it was mostly ruined when FA was introduced.

If the Cybran T3 sub is to recieve stealth, could other countermeasures be applied to the other factions? Such as Torp defense for Aeon, and Sonar Jamming for UEF? As a way of developing equivalence within the framework of factional diversity.

3. The Aeon ACU Intel upgrade is incredibly useful when combined with the range gun upgrade. It is the preferable upgrade to get when facing a Cybran Monkeylord. As most of the damage is dealt with the OC cannon, and it is more important to get an Omni fix on the ML, which is stealthed. Generally, this is the upgrade I get when my ACU is at home, and doing nothing. It is extra security against sneak attacks. It is good value for money with the current costs. (The problem is that most players don't appreciate the value of intel).

[Hawkei]

if you build blaze, you are wasting mass except if it is for naval use.
anything owns your blaze. t1, heavy tanks and i havent tested it yet but i think also rocket bots can take care of blazes.
if they can in any way then aeon basically doesnt have a counter to them.
if obsidians with shields beat anything that doesnt have range or isnt t1 it doesnt mean the shields need to get weaker.
a obsidian shield army should be a moving fortress that you cant just attack with your army but you have to weaken it with rocketbots and finish it with t1 spam.
as a seraphim, when facing an obsidian army you should take care to use your range to get down the shields. withot shields the obsidians wont stand a chance against the chickenbots

This doesn't agree with my general experience with Aeon T2. Aeon have 3 T2 Options: Asylum, Blaze and Obsidian. Of these the Blaze has a couple of advantages.
1. It does not need power for upkeep
2. It can go with the Aurora on water
3. It has the same firing range as the Aurora

While the Blaze damage output for cost is not that impressive. It's HP are. Essentially, the Blaze is a run in T2 unit for the early T2 phase. When power is at a premium, and you need something a bit heaver. It is microed exactly like an Aurora, so there is no conflict in army management. It's job is to work with the Aurora and tank damage. A job which it does well... It is also the unit of choice in an Aeon mirror match. As the obsidian will get out ranged and massively overkill Aurora. The use of the Blaze in early T2 is dicated, not by it's stats, but by the need to keep Aurora effective.

Eventrually, Aeon will convert into a full T2 assault force, with Obsidians as the primary unit. But Obsidian micro is different to Blaze micro - they do not mix well.

[Patton]

2. As for strategic subs. They were much more useful as a TM Launching platform in Vanilla SC, because, the missiles used to track their targets. Which gave a very interesting naval warfare dynamic of "cat and mouse". With destroyers and T1 subs hunting down T3 missile subs, which could fire from range, and sink the destroyers with their missiles. With non-tracking missiles, T3 missile subs were effectively useless for anti-naval operations. They currently only have a limited application for sniping static targets. Which is not to be underestimated, because they are invulnerable to T2 Coastal artillery. They can operate within these contested waters, when other bombardment solutions might draw fire... They still have a role, but it was mostly ruined when FA was introduced.

If the Cybran T3 sub is to receive stealth, could other countermeasures be applied to the other factions? Such as Torp defense for Aeon, and Sonar Jamming for UEF? As a way of developing equivalence within the framework of factional diversity.

the Cybran t3 sub has stealth b/c that is their gimmick. If the Aeon get Torp defense, then the UEF t3 sub should get torps or some other extra weapon. It should NOT receive jamming because the whole purpose of putting your nuke on a submarine is to HIDE it (they have names like "plan B" and "ace" for a reason). If you give it jamming it will be much more noticeable and vulnerable

[Mycen]

It should NOT receive jamming because the whole purpose of putting your nuke on a submarine is to HIDE it (they have names like "plan B" and "ace" for a reason). If you give it jamming it will be much more noticeable and vulnerable

I agree 100%. Stealth on Cybran strat subs is long overdue, but other intel abilities on other factions' subs are inappropriate. Not every unit needs to be crammed full of extras.


Also, I'm not too keen on the nuke range decrease for strategic submarines. I just really do not see the purpose of it. They are strategic missile submarines because you are not supposed to have to fight a tactical engagement to use them. Your opponent is supposed to have to find them and chase them down to neutralize them, not just patrol off his coast and wait for them to sail into range. I don't understand how cutting their nuke range by almost two-thirds is supposed to make them a more attractive, better, or more balanced choice in any way.

It is already time-consuming enough to use strategic missile subs on an 81x81 with their current range. (As in 5+ minutes of cruising time just to get in range.) Dropping the range so drastically will make that even more frustrating, and make them even more vulnerable to attack as they try to get in range. There's just no reason for it.


EDIT: Also, if we are going to drop the strat sub's range, is there any way to make the missile flight time shorter? That would at least give it a 'surprise attack' type of characteristic. If it were a ballistic projectile rather than flying all the way straight up, across, then all the way back down.