Blodir's maps

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Re: Blodir's maps

Postby Blodir » 17 May 2015, 08:51

Yes, in a map where your opponents are your neighbors you will find difficulty in rushing air, but we are talking about a 20x20 largely naval map here. This is not Desert Arena. What you are saying is that the map should be a different map entirely and all map design should cater to creating that small niche of maps where t3 air rush isn't possible. That kind of thinking brings worse results in terms of gameplay, than t3 air itself does. It is simply not possible to avoid t3 air unless you want a completely new map - and even then (in cases like hilly plateau and sands of ablicka) if one player is left alone for a couple of minutes (which is likely in a game where attacking is discouraged with reclaim, acus, defensive structures etc.) he will be able to end the game with t3 air.

Now I don't want to go all ad hominem on you, but since this has a lot to do with the perceived strength of a strategy I have to mention that we have quite a large gap in experience on the subject. You can of course argue forever about how t1 bombers will rain hell on the "air player", but it doesn't change the fact that in a real world situation a couple of stationary anti airs will do short work of them. Or you can argue that it's possible to go for t2 bomber all in, but in a real game the air guy will just scout it and make some inties to defend while preparing to go t3 and ending the game with it shortly afterwards.

If you want to create a certain kind of land/navy gameplay you will have to accept that t3 air rush will be a part of your map no matter what.

For the record, the airspot in Selkie is vulnerable to naval raiding. 1 mex by frigates, 3 more by destroyers (depends which kind), and most if not all by cruisers.
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Re: Blodir's maps

Postby Vee » 17 May 2015, 13:48

@IceDreamer: What you are saying is simply incorrect in my experience.

1) Strat rush is far more deadly on maps without a dedicated air spot.

2) Land isn't vulnerable to navy on Selkie Isle at all. The travel distance is too big for significant naval raids, it will be a mass donation. Land mounted defense vs navy? One word: hover.
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Re: Blodir's maps

Postby IceDreamer » 17 May 2015, 14:04

Well, I have to concede the experience points, but I stand by my opinion: I think the map would work better if the supposed Air slot were far more vulnerable to direct fire Navy, to slow it down and force the team to defend it.

Course I also stand by my other observations. Blodir, what do you think about drop-mexes around the outskirts, perhaps 1 per player?

I would very much like to see this map played with the full player count using balancepreview V16 as well, if anyone could oblige. The combination of hit detection fixes pertaining extremely heavily to Navy VS Hover VS Torplaunchers, the improvements to T2 Static Arty, and the nerf to T3 Air, this map is freaking ideal as a testbed to see how they all interact in reality. Anyone?...
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Re: Blodir's maps

Postby Vee » 17 May 2015, 14:36

It would be nice if the middle positions were more vulnerable to navy, but how do you achieve that?
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Re: Blodir's maps

Postby Col_Walter_Kurtz » 18 May 2015, 12:39

IceDreamer wrote:I disagree massively. If NOBODY has the safety to rush strats then this simply isn't an issue. Someone decides to rush strats when there is no safe spot, you scout it, and you snipe their E production, or swarm them with T1. Rushing strats, which is the problem, is an enormous risk any time you're not in a super-safe, super eco map position. It should be hard to pull off without being killed. Your team need to support you. But it's high risk because the reward is massive. The only time this doesn't happen is when the guy rushing strats is much too safe.

The meta has arisen from map design, not strictly game balance. You don't see stratrush on maps where every player is vulnerable to raiding right from the beginning, there are just so few of these that people don't realize it.


So how do you envision a map where no one can go early air? You are probably thinking of a very open 5k land map. Not really the norm. On any slightly larger map (10k or up) you will never lose to early spam and make it to T3 air.

Even if you have to defend against "raiding", with the help of your team if need be. You have plenty of time to make some defending units as you work towards the RAS upgrade. It'st just so easy to go fast T3 air with RAS. That is the real cause of rush. It has nothing to do with overall map design catering to air play.
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Re: Blodir's maps

Postby IceDreamer » 18 May 2015, 15:54

You simply have every position vulnerable, or those positions which are not trade their defensive location for lesser resources. I have nothing against a T3 Air rush strategy, what I dislike is mapmakers continually fueling this gameplay scenario by not only creating a slot which is behind allies, well protected, and not vulnerable to raids, but also has additional resources relative to the other slots! That's so backwards.

Rushing T3 Air, I don't mean just a fairly fast flow towards it, I mean those players who build NOTHING but eco until T3 Air, like many Setons rear players. IMHO, if you try to do that on a well-designed map, you should get steamrollered by an aggressive enemy. You should HAVE to either build things to defend yourself as you work on getting to T3 Air, which of course slows down that achievement to the point it's no longer game-breaking, or your team should have to put massive effort into defending you.

This is perfectly possible on a 15k effective area map like this one, though to Blodir's credit it's a lot, LOT harder to emphasize aggression when you have so much water, and he has done a bang-up job. I just think that if there's a slot which is much less raidable, and therefore conducive to eco and tech, it should have significantly less resources available to it as compromise.
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Re: Blodir's maps

Postby Col_Walter_Kurtz » 18 May 2015, 17:02

Yeah I hear you, extra reclaim for back players indeed seems wrong. But still its a choice to invest it in air. it could be anything else too of course. It just happens to be air all the time because early RAS and T3 pays off or are at least necessary to defend against an opponent who will surely be going that route.

And Setons is quite an extreme example of dedicated air play. Other maps don't work that way imo.
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Re: Blodir's maps

Postby Blodir » 05 Aug 2015, 09:47

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Re: Blodir's maps

Postby Lionhardt » 05 Aug 2015, 12:33

I think it's quite good. I like the cliffs. The color variation is for my taste too little, but... taste. From a gameplay point of view the heightmap does not really convince me, though, looks a little simplistic.
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Re: Blodir's maps

Postby Blodir » 05 Aug 2015, 20:09

Another new map!

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E: There's now 2 versions of this in the map vault due to a couple of fails on my part... Please play the newest ^^
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