Pandemonium 10km (v10)

[Kiliax]

pandemonium_10km.v0010.small.png (18.9 KiB) Viewed 2747 times

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Looking to get some feedback from players who have played my new map. Preferably not against the AI as the AI does not know how to play the map effectively. I would prefer to get feedback from players who have played 1v1 on up to 6v6. The map is capable of 7v7 but I made that possible just because I could. There are a lot of options to adapt the map to different types of game play and to different player numbers, such as Dynamic Spawns which will only spawn resources for players in the game as well as changing from 1-4 starting mexes (depending on opinions I MAY and options for up to 6 starting mexes but IMHO that is overkill). It is highly recommended that reclaim be adjusted for every game as a default setting other than 100% is not possible and this is way too much reclaim for a normal game. You will find options to adjust reclaim based on how many mexes can be upgraded to T2 by reclaiming all reclaim. There are also options for which mexes will be available in various locations on the map. Different recommended game types would be reclaim heavy with minimal mexes or high quantity of mexes with fewer reclaim. The reclaim amount is adjustable but keep in mind it will take the same amount of time to reclaim it (I do not know how to setup a script, or if it is even possible to, to adjust the specific variables of various reclaim. If you would be so kind as to include your replay UID so I can find it I would like to watch these games. I would really like to get 900+ players playing the map so actual play feedbackfrom higher ranked players would be awesome. Please, give me feedback if you have actually played the map and preferably a few times at least to really know how it plays and not just givng me feedback based on your opinions from just looking at it and making assumptions. If you do make assumptions before hand, and then actually play it multiplayer I would love to hear what your assumptions were and whether or not they were correct. Assumptions alone do not interest me. I have spent over 45+ hours (crazy, I know, and maybe a bit unbelievable but it's true) developing this map trying to take into consideration various unit ranges, movement, transport locations, build-able terrain etc. If you are going to suggest adding water, I have thought about filling the trench with water but would be a monumental task to re-texture map as it uses 8 stratums and with water I can only use 4 so would have to massively decal terrain to look proper and unless it is a popular map to play I will not spend the time to do so. With all the time I have in this project it would be nice if players would be willing to at least invest a couple games and different game settings when giving feedback. Please, be kind in your comments, I take criticism well, but when it is well directed. Thank you. - Unfortunately I do not know how to attach map folder as it is too large or how to include link so will just have to search vault for Pandemonium 10km or Pandemonium* - I have attached small thumbnail from folder

[speed2]

Hi so the major problem with this map, if I can call it a problem, why high rated players won't probably play this map is the design that is not in favor of intresting gameplay.

Intresting gameplay can be usually seen in open maps with expansions, possiblity to raid and at least several choke points.

Now if we look at your map, starting with starting positions, they are all on the same place. That's is not necessary a bad thing, but it also removed one option of raiding, as the main bases are just too well defended. It works on maps like Hilly, but rest of that maps is very open and forces all players to expand/raid, fight for map control.

I guess the bigger problem of your map is that it's a single choke point map, all fighting will happen in the middle of the map with no option of raiding or very limited options of getting an advantage elsewhere.
Also all the mexes you can take on your way to the middle are safe.

Then whoever wins the middle will get a huge advantage.

Not only you have now 2 main ways of getting to the base, you can also access the mountain, kill every mex on it and then use arty or mml to kill the bases as well.

If we look at the hill, it's design is also not the best, I haven't tried it but it seems that you can't really drop the mexes as there's probably not enough space for transports. And then the previous problem of where you can access it from.


There are two expansions in those crystal craters, but the only way of getting there is via a transport, so I don't expect much raiding there once you force your oppenent off it. Having it move open would help.
I also find the textures there quite hard to look at, but some other ppl might like it.
I think there's too much reclaim in them.

The last thing to mention is that even the flat areas are too hilly, example:

You won't be bale to place too many building there and units will have problems firing at each other.

[Evan_]

I'm taking my experience from the 1v1 I played, and from the few replays there are. I really would like to see what a 1k+ or higher game looks like, but trying to get even 1 player to join takes longer than a whole point of reach lobby.

Honestly it's just not that fun. I'm guessing what you were going for is a battle of drops for the sides, but IMO drops just aren't fun on their own, they're fun when you have large land battles and raiding mixed in, or a bit of stagnation for drops to break up. But here you pretty much have the choice of 2 places to land, both your opponent will see coming from a mile away and counter fairly easily.

coming back from a loss of either the sides or air is nearly impossible (and losing mid is bad if that's enabled, but I didn't play with that on). This dooms you to bunkering down in your base and waiting for arty/nuke to kill you or just ctrlk-ing.

the bumpy terrain makes building land factories nearly impossible in the crystal fields and on some parts of the center. I guess that's the point to encourage dropping reinforcements but it's artificially restricting gameplay and in some cases it makes it harder for transports to land.

And as mentioned above the mountain restricts the options with all the chokepoints it creates. The most fun thing I can think of is dropping some T3 mobile artillery and raining down fire but it's mostly going to cause stagnation.

[Kiliax]

First, I want to thank you both for your comments. When I have a block of time, I will post a more in depth reply but wanted to post this UID for a 3v3 replay I played. Not exactly the greatest game due to a couple players not doing to well (ahem, me being 1 of them lmao) and others not being familiar with the map. In the replay there are some interesting aspects where someone transported arty onto mountain early game. As a quick response to the sand dunes, yes they do get in the way of ground unit fire and that was the point I intended, to give players who are wise enough to position types of units properly to takeadvantage of the landscape such as putting arty and missile launchers behind the dunes and moving/positioning direct fire units on top. Unlike inTotal Annihilation where visual range would be affected by hills which allowed players to take advantageof landscape for stealth movements, here you can use the dunes to move units and avoid getting attacked if a player is not paying attention to stale units (another reason to be aware of where you stop your units). Anyways - when I have more time I will post more with picks and graphics etc. like you did speed2 to help explain my thoughts and comments. EvanGalea a special thanks for playing the map! Means a lot to me that you at least tried it. As for the replay the UID is 7253618 or you can search games for player Kiliax and it is the Custom 3v3 900+ - not sure best way to link to a replay?...anyways, thanks again!

[Franck83]

Hi Kiliax,

Love the Crystal prop

I'm not strategy master but i looked at your replay. Your game was not played aggressively and the victory seems not so realistic (Strats bomb sniped ACU in base, opponent got nearly no air defense). Nearly no strikes on crystal zones from opponents.

Speed was right about 1 middle map shock point (from your replay) :


If you compare your map with finn's revenge (the design has some similarities with your start base protected by a hill), you have much less raiding flanking solutions (no sea, no lake). Sand dunes let show a lot of fire obstacles. Crystals and hill stratums are pathfinding nightmare and so hard to protect.

[Kiliax]

There's a lot to cover here in response to both your comments. So here we go -
First up is transports - Here is a screenshot that shows where every transport drop is possible (besides obvious ones in the sand dunes, flat areas etc.). There are alot of places to drop and I guess I figured the point would be to use intel or stealth to sneak transports by to land them near other teams side. I also originally planned for this to be a lower Mex map which would result in a T1-T2 play with T3 trickling in and evventually taking over. Unfortunately, I think I am realizing now that all players care about is tons of mass, ecoing to T3 immediately and spamming everything under the sun instead of actually creatively using units. It usually does not take long to get an Omni up in the average game which then makes stealth pointless. Rarely do I see it used and so I guess my intention was to create a map where T2 would last longer and stealth would be more useful or more of an issue. I played a game where someone got a drop when I had control of one of the crystal fields and if they had dropped several transports or T2 units they could possible have taken it over. Or they could have built T2 artillery to soften me up for the landing units.

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Buildable areas - Here you can see where I have built on pretty much every available spot for a factory which seems to me to be way more than enough locations. I have played 1v1 many times with Neilpacolypse and many times he has dropped in the same filed as me with extreme prejudice cause he knew I would go there and I would not realize it until it was too late because there was enough distance to cover and we both had factories up. I've also played games where he ignored the sides, went for mid and won as well. And it would seem to me someone could drop engies and start building a base near the edge of the field on the other teams side and the other team might not notice because they are moving all there units in the iddle of the pathway or along the Plateau edge.

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Here I show how T2 Arty can be built on the point to assist with attacking mid (which I have done in a 3v3 and seriously helped me support Neilpacolypse fight off incoming T3 units. I am a much weaker player than our opponent was but being familiar wiht the map seemed my knowledge of tactics helped a lot. Maybe not, who knows. This goes for the land side as well which when placed near the edge can reach well into the fields.

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T2 TML are also extemely powerful because they cover almost the entire map.
An as I mentioned in my previous post, I was expecting players to utilize the terrain to there advantage and tactics, not whine and complain about units firing into hills.
I do understand your points about the bases being "cramped" and not being able to drop transports behind the base, but because of this I put only 4 mexes in spawn (really I would choose the 2 spawn mex option for best gameplay) so players are forced to get out of there base, expand, and gain/keep/fight over map control. There is no sitting in your base and building up a nuke without map control. And I wish you the best of luck in winning and keeping the middle mexes even if you are using the 5 option. Maybe in a low player count game but I think in a higher player match they are going to be continuously destroyed and rebuilt. In my opionion I think the winning player will utilize engies to reclaim trash in the middle to get mexes upgraded to get the win. But hey, this is all speculation cause I cant get anyone to play. As for interesting gameplay , to me this line of thinking for me makes this an interesting map. I even played a 1v1, lost my base but had both sides and transported my ACU to the side to continue the fight. But unless players are willing to open their minds a little, be more explorative with maps and keep playing them to figure out how to actually tacticly play the map I may be at a lose here. Maybe I am by myself in a community where everyone just wants to eco, T3 and spam, nuke or arty.
As for too much reclaim...why do say that? I used to enjoy the good old day RTS's where you had to reclaim for resources, maintain and protect suppply routes and vehucles and I guess this was my attempt at bringing that back as best I could in Supcom. If you adjust the options (which you should for every game since I cannot establish a default setting) you can make the reclaim next to nil. Like literally a few thousnd for the entire map - and it will take almost the whole game to collect it.

[Kiliax]

Hi Kiliax,

Love the Crystal prop

I'm not strategy master but i looked at your replay. Your game was not played aggressively and the victory seems not so realistic (Strats bomb sniped ACU in base, opponent got nearly no air defense). Nearly no strikes on crystal zones from opponents.

Speed was right about 1 middle map shock point (from your replay) :

If you compare your map with finn's revenge (the design has some similarities with your start base protected by a hill), you have much less raiding flanking solutions (no sea, no lake). Sand dunes let show a lot of fire obstacles. Crystals and hill stratums are pathfinding nightmare and so hard to protect.

OMG hahaha, yeah, I guess thats what its like with players who arent that great. Green on other team did not expand at all I dont think.I agree victory was realistic cause no one had played map before. Just once I would love to see a 3v3 or 4v4 with approriate option settings and 1.2k+ players play map like 5 times in a row. Since this is only a 10km map I wanted to focus map space on the frontlines and corners cause I planned n doing a 15x15 (I started wrking on a 20x20 which resembles this in some ways where I was trying to do what I considered or thought might be a better version of Seton's which included water but I had bases to far in corner still) On a slightly larger version I would spread out players a bit, allow drops behind or around bases and add in some water. And your right, there was no fighting over crystal area. I think it would have been a completely different game if everyone knew the map. Thanks for checking out the replay and giving your thoughts. Much appreciated.

[Kiliax]

**** EDIT *** I would like to know how many are interested in the continued development of this map because they want to play it if I make these changes? If there is enough interest I will make a seperate map with these alterations for your enjoyment, however, after playing v10 enough I feel I do not like these changes and I like the map exactly how it currently is. If there is not enough interest I am going to stop working on this and leave v10 as it is (later I plan on adding options for wreckage and finishing decals) and start working on a 15x15 or 20x20 version (map size will be determined during development) which will include water and incorporate elements such as areas around and behind bases for raiding and sneaky drops as well as spreading bases out from each other. I have an idea in mind for this map, but this map will take a long time to develop and if there is enough interest I will finish making the alterations to v10 (which I think I will just cal lit "Bridged Pandemonium 10km") so that players will have a new map to enjoy while I make the iteration.

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I am working on making changes adding in 2 land bridges to the crystal fields, one on each side of the field in the middle of the side and adding ramps to the backsides of the Plateaus. Played a 6v6 game last night (A special thanks to everyone that played, best new year's EVER You can watch this Replay UID : 7268731 It was not the greatest of games but had high level players. I was playing REALLY bad and didnt eco well so wasnt much help to my team and is not the greatest example of how the map would typically play but it does giv somewhat of an idea of how it eco's. The settings were as follows: All Mexes enabled and reclaim set to 74 Mexes (7v7 + Xtra Mexes)

When I finish changes I will start a new post for v11

Thanks for all the feedback everyone!