Adaptive maps, next level map creation

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Re: Adaptive maps, next level map creation

Postby CookieNoob » 15 Sep 2016, 07:39

AwarE wrote:I think you guys want me to add markers so that the new maps can be played by all Human players in ranked competition and on the same map be able to play against a good AI.

yes exactly. The markers should allow the AI to take over a player spot, behave properly and not only derp around (i.e. so one can just put an AI in when there are an odd number of players and start the game. Ofc the AI wont perform as good as a player but it would be good when its not only an empty spot).

AwarE wrote:This idea has a few problems, I'm not sure that the method I use to set FA markers will be compatible with these maps where resources can disappear.
Another issue is that to produce a strong AI performance I set markers in one direction, as I am telling the AI what paths to use, the location of resources and how to defend against/attack the Humans.
If it was possible to place AI in say 2 or 3 start positions on only a particular side of the map the marker layout would easier.

hm I understand the problem but it the main goal is to allow for a maximum of flexibility...

AwarE wrote:Is it possible to restrict the AI to certain start positions using code?

yes and no. You can just not spawn it when it is somewhere, where a player "should be". It is impossible to add the "add AI" options to only a few spots in the lobby. And if you want to play 8v8 with some ai, you should be allowed to do so.

However it is possible to add markers specifically linked to player positions to the save.lua file. This basically means that one could put all the AI marker in some separate file and then add only those markers to the save.lua file when the AI linked to the spot is actually present.

AwarE wrote:Can you write code so that the resources spawned for the AI are different than those spawned for Humans?

what exactly do you mean? the resources are linked to player spawns and are explicitly not spawned when a player is absent.

AwarE wrote:The maps that I make are generally not balanced for Human v Human ranked games.

Since this map series is supposed to replace all of those specific versions by putting them all into one map, these maps have to be balanced.

AwarE wrote:Anyway I will have a go at doing one and submit the *.save.lua

Great!
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Re: Adaptive maps, next level map creation

Postby speed2 » 15 Sep 2016, 08:31

I' actually not shout out loud words like impossible, just more difficult to code :) If you figure out a good system that it should follow it is possible to code it and eventually include it in the faf patch if needed.
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Re: Adaptive maps, next level map creation

Postby CookieNoob » 15 Sep 2016, 08:52

speed2 wrote:I' actually not shout out loud words like impossible, just more difficult to code :) If you figure out a good system that it should follow it is possible to code it and eventually include it in the faf patch if needed.

well what I meant is "not possible to show AI only on those spots that are designated as AI spots [in the current implementation of the lobby]"
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Re: Adaptive maps, next level map creation

Postby AwarE » 15 Sep 2016, 12:43

I try to give the AI maximum adjacency bonus and ensure it has uncluttered and sufficient room to build its main base, therefor I place the AI's mex in a certain layout and distance that ensures it does not mass stall and has ample room to build. Normally I try to leave the Human start position as they are on the original map so that people can practice their build the way it would be against other Humans in ranked. The same marker layout could be used for all start points so that the AI could start anywhere ....but this would change the look of the map and some may not like that uniformity. Also in most cases I do edit the start point for AI in the map editor to ensure props don't get in the way and that there is enough flat land. The closest Major Expansion point marker position to the AI start position would get similar treatment. Another thing I do, in the editor, to make the AI run better is smooth the path that units will take particularly at corners and choke points. So you would also need the scmap file as well as the save file after those edits.

On my TeamPlay_AI maps some players play in reverse, they start where the AI should be. The game still works but the AI is weak. As far as the directional problem is concerned, your maps will need to advise players of the best AI start positions in the map description ...normally this would be positions 2,4,6 & 8. Often it is only positions 2 & 4 as I find that just 2 AIs do much better than using any more, and I can use the vacant position 6 & 8 as high build priority forward bases. Whereas Major Expansion markers only get high build priority when the main base area is too small.
The further the AI start positions are from each other, the better they will build. When AI start near each other they interact and get in each others way, it can easily cause the AIs to build nothing at all.

I was hoping you could code it so that a special layout of markers, mex and hydro, was only spawned if AI occupied that start point.

Another thing is that my map editor and marker editor can not open maps with more than 8 player start positions. I have to remove any start points above 8 by editing the save file, before I can open the map.

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Re: Adaptive maps, next level map creation

Postby CookieNoob » 15 Sep 2016, 13:36

AwarE wrote:I was hoping you could code it so that a special layout of markers, mex and hydro, was only spawned if AI occupied that start point.

yes I can do that, thats actually really easy to do. Just add the mexes/hydros the ai should use at the spots where they are needed. Mass spots not inked to players will spawn however (some mex are independent to prevent parts of the map being useless wasteland). The mexes should have the name "Mass XXX" where XXX is an integer number. Then just write down the numbers like this:
Code: Select all
{121,126,190,12,5}

In case you do one of the newer maps (all maps besides zeta wonder, wonder open, canis, hilly) I can implement that in no time. On the other maps there is some additional stuff to do, but with the list its also doable (and I will do it myself). Same thing applies for hydros ofc too
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Re: Adaptive maps, next level map creation

Postby AwarE » 16 Sep 2016, 07:08

Overall I think we are at odds, trying to do opposing things to maps.

You aims...
You are trying to make all maps have extra start spots that spawn resources as necessary with great flexibility.
You want the maps to be for ranked competition.
You want the AI to fill slots on Human teams. Hmm... I think the closest Human player would reclaim what the AI builds to gain mass.
You want balanced resources and mirrored land-form.
You don't seem to want any vacant start points.
Your maps are to be played with "Assassination" as the Victory Condition.

My aims...
I make maps that have one side devoted to AI. Play is only verses AI and is in only one direction similar to Co-Op without cut scenes or target goals.
In TeamPlay_AI, to win, your team have to destroy all AI and not lose any Human Commanders.
Most of my maps are not mirrored or symmetrical. Land-form is different and only the AI resources are in a certain pattern and spacing.
Most of my maps have some unit restriction making the map un-ranked...example Paragon. I often prevent Aeon building a bomb in its already volatile main base. To allow more flexibility I made some maps with no restrictions and I added "NOT balanced for Human verses Human play" in the map's description. This was dangerous because it relied on players good will to not play ranked games on these maps. I have seen that some players do set up ranked games on these uneven maps, and because of these few bad eggs I always restrict something.
On my maps in the past the maximum number of human players was 4 and that would be against just 2 AI. Now that more people have computers running overclocked at 4GHz and better I have recently made some maps that allow 3 Humans verse 3 AI and 4H v 4AI. LAN party anyone? :)
On the net I find that 4 Humans verses 2 AI on 10x10 runs very fast, 2 Humans verses 4 AIx@1.4 on 20x20 will stress any computer you throw at it, -2 at one hour, still OK. Put 4 Humans on that 20x20 verses 4 AIx and it will slow to -4 before one hour. I am now trying 4H v 4AIx on 10x20 and hope to see no less than -2 game speed at one hour.
I like to have at least 2 vacant start points. One more could be utilized but any more than that would make the AI stall while building structures on them instead of building attack units.
My maps are to be played with "Annihilation" as the Victory Condition.

So I don't think I can add anything meaningful to your maps, I'm sorry to say that your AI will never be competitive and in most cases will be inconsistent, performing reasonably well sometimes and doing almost nothing in other games.

I can't even open your maps to see the markers. What tool do you use? Editing out 8 of the 16 start points in the save file is tedious.

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Re: Adaptive maps, next level map creation

Postby biass » 16 Sep 2016, 07:43

hi cookie, i started decalling canis
http://imgur.com/a/1xVpl

question tho, why put a battleship in middle? the 1v1 version had scattered rocks in the water, i think that method is better :P
Map thread: https://bit.ly/2PBsa5H

Petricpwnz wrote:biass on his campaign to cleanse and remake every single map of FAF because he is an untolerating reincarnation of mapping hitler
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Re: Adaptive maps, next level map creation

Postby CookieNoob » 16 Sep 2016, 07:57

@AwarE:
you are totally right with my goals ;) the maps are supposed to be suited for all kinds of games and thus have to be balanced. There will be vacant starting locations though, when you play 4 vs 2AI (the mirror spots of the additional human players).
There is the possibility to spawn a different set of ressources in case a spot is taken by AI, so having an unbalanced map only when there is AI present.
AwarE wrote: To allow more flexibility I made some maps with no restrictions and I added "NOT balanced for Human verses Human play" in the map's description.

This isnt necessairy in this case, because the ressources will spawn in a symmetric way when humans play vs humans and in some other way when there is AI.
AwarE wrote:My maps are to be played with "Annihilation" as the Victory Condition.

the maps are supposed to allow for maximum flexibility, it is not necessairy to play them in assasination mode.

I used Ozonex map editor to edit the markers and add additional mex/hydros and also starting locations. However the editor has some bugs and requires some editing of the _save.lua file and the _scenario.file to get the map actually working. It will also delete all the reclaim on the map :( so one has to copy it back in manually.


@biass:
nice! The reclaim is adjustable, you can spawn nothing or a couple of frigates. If you want to you can even have a battleship there... Rocks have the disadvantage that they are saved within the mapname.scmap file and not in the mapname_save.lua file and therefore are not spawnable by script. I can only have adjustable wrecks or civilians. Therefore I decided not to add rocks to the middle to have the map similar to canis 4v4, but I wont stop you if you do it differently :)
Just make sure that you add the wrecks/civs/whatever you want to have optional on the map/... to a group like the other wrecks :)
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Re: Adaptive maps, next level map creation

Postby ozonex » 16 Sep 2016, 13:28

SirTobi60 wrote:However the editor has some bugs and requires some editing of the _save.lua file and the _scenario.file to get the map actually working. It will also delete all the reclaim on the map :( so one has to copy it back in manually.


You sure it lose reclaim? Send me PM with what is lost exactly on what map (example to test it) and what is wrong with save and scenario files.
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Re: Adaptive maps, next level map creation

Postby CookieNoob » 16 Sep 2016, 14:32

ozonex wrote:
SirTobi60 wrote:However the editor has some bugs and requires some editing of the _save.lua file and the _scenario.file to get the map actually working. It will also delete all the reclaim on the map :( so one has to copy it back in manually.


You sure it lose reclaim? Send me PM with what is lost exactly on what map (example to test it) and what is wrong with save and scenario files.


yes I'm sure it loses all units and stuff (so wrecks and civs and so on...) when you save the map (the backup will have this though). The save.lua file is rewritten when you save the map and it doesnt contain any wreckage. Furthermore if you dont delete the comments that are saved into that file, the map wont work. Even the editor wont load it properly.

I already reported the ['SpawnWithArmy'] thing on the hydros that are added, but this has to be fixed too.

The scenario.lua file also contains some strange characters (that are kinda invisible). I had to copy the text in the file, delete everything there and paste it back... that fixed this (the text in both files is identical, "meld" doesn't show any difference, the file size differs though). Same thing applies to the save.lua file too.

The scenario file loses all information about extra props (i.e. civilian army) and this army also gets deleted form the save.lua file.

As an example to test it: download Wonder Open ultimate and look at the save.lua file (on the very bottom there are the wrecks as parts of army_17). Now open the map in the editor and save it. Now reload the save.lua file and you will see no more wrecks. To test the hydro thing: just add a hydro, save the map and search the save.lua file for hydro_X, you will see the wrong formatting immediately. To check the strange letter bug: save the map and open FA (from the FAF folder, offline), now open the debug console in the main menu (put it on some hotkey) and host a game lobby (skirmish). Select the map and try to load it (if you can start the game, the bug isnt there). Some errors will show up in the debug window pointing to the comment lines in save.lua and maybe also to scenario.lua. Changing the map afterwards is usually impossible because the lobby crashes and you cant push any button when you want to leave the map selection window. You can change the map by either deleting the broken one or hosting a game on FAF (since it will override the last played map). I am not at home to check if these tests really work, but I am 99.99% certain they will.
Last edited by CookieNoob on 17 Sep 2016, 01:31, edited 1 time in total.
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