Balance Test Mod.

Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby Lu_Xun_17 » 03 Mar 2013, 01:15

Or just do not change anything as there is no real problem with aurora.

Actually i understand more why we have this change. A player shown me the topic where a codder made a mod with the torret for hover units. When the code is already made, the change is way easly accepted it looks like. :roll:

Some other points about the current 3622 test mod :

- you probably added one more "0" in the scathis energy cost increase :mrgreen:

- why is oblivion buffed without any reason ?

- The ASF system simply can't work, it's not even needed to search for replays. You can't cut by 2 the asf dps and keeping the same buildtime, it makes T2 fightbombers or stratbombers absolutly unstoppable, and it increases x2 the problem of engies massed around factory. I don't even try to predict how Restorers comes back the imba unit it was in 3599!

- I though the titan buff was refused, but i'll ask you for a 3rd time if it's possible, please, to get the final results of the survey votes :)
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Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby MushrooMars » 03 Mar 2013, 07:10

ShadowKnight wrote:The Aurora changes are an extremely poor bit of logic, Pil0t, I'm disappointed. I understand your intentions, but you have not fixed a bug, what you have done is introduced a workaround to the bug, and one which is poor in conception and even poorer in implementation. These units have been balanced from the ground up around the fact that they must turn their entire body to fire. Changing this fact is far too big a change for one go. Also, this bug is not even a bug at all, but an intended feature...

Their lack of responsiveness is nothing to do with the turret, and is a design feature, not a bug. To compensate for these units being able to traverse water thanks to hover, and as a feature/lore design, ALL hover units have lower acceleration than their wheeled or tracked counterparts. It makes sense too, if you consider the physical behaviour of an IRL Hovercraft. You can't just say 'I don't like this design feature, so I'm going to change it'. No, there has to be proper thought put into such a massive change.

1: Lock the Turrets again. This IS NOT a good solution to the problem.
2: Examine the facts - Long has Aeon been micro-heavy in return for power. The behaviour of hovering units has long been a part of that.
3: If you insist on changing it, do the following:

- Allow the turret to move by roughly 5 degrees to each side. This allows a little leeway while keeping the turn rate of the unit the driving force behind its behaviour.
- Increase the unit's TurnFacingRate, TurnRate and MaxAcceleration, decrease the DragCoefficient and MaxSpeed. Might I suggest +30, +30, +0.2, -0.05, and -0.1 respectively as a starting point.



As an aside, one change to SAMs I'd like to see which can only have a positive effect, and will naturally cut down on overkill:

+100% Projectile Velocity


The fact that hover units have to turn their entire body to face their target is a major disadvantage. The Seraphim T2 Hover Tank has its turret set to rotate freely by default. Why? Because it looks prettier if the turret rotates freely as opposed to the body rotating with it. In addition to this, the Zthuee's turret rotated almost freely before, allowing it to acquire its target almost instantly, because its turnspeed and turret rotation speed would compound upon eachother and give the unit a twitch-shoot aiming ability.

Seriously. If you want me to, I can change the hovertank tweak so that the entire unit's body rotates like a turret at the unit's default turn speed, if it looks more pleasing that way. However, the way units twitch when given a change in move orders is a fatal flaw because of the fact that any T1 Direct Fire unit can get in range by the time the Aurora is done twitching. It isn't as big an issue for other hovertanks because they have a really good health-to-mass ratio, but the Aurora suffers because of it. With this fix, Aeon T1 land is a contender in competitive games on maps without strategically placed bodies of water to abuse.

TL;DR
If you are having trouble with Auroras, you can spam Light Assault Bots and murderize them like you would any other slow, long-range unit. Or outrange them with Artillery. Or PD. Or just tankrush, the enemy commander can't micro his Auroras 100% of the time, and they loose to anything in a direct engagement.
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Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby pip » 03 Mar 2013, 09:16

Some feedback about the last version of the Test mod:
1) people should chill out, it's a test mod, don't jump at Pilot's throat just because he wants to test stuff. Test it and report.

2) I tested the Aurora stats changes by Shadowknight and they seem pretty good, the behaviour or the aurora is less buggy, not unresponsive as before. If Auroras are too strong, it seems to be a good place to start.

3) The Ilshavoh speed is still 2.8 (should be 2.7)

4) The Firebeetle works as intended, great! the surface threat level is 4 which is higher than Mantis (2) and Rhino (3), but slightly lower than Hoplite and Wagner (4.5). I don't think any change is needed, at least for now. If it proves to be too strong, the surface threat level can be increased a little.

5) The ASF issue : I would suggest to keep only the hp nerf idea :reduce all ASF by 750 HP, and Restorer's Health by 500 HP, without changing any other stats. That makes ASF more vulnerable to ground and naval AA, which means that flying them over a base with a few flacks and SAMs, or over Cruisers will really thin their numbers (that should make them work like inties). Stockpiling as time goes by will be harder.
The 500 HP nerf to Restorer is to prevent them from being too strong due to easier veterancy gain from killing weaker ASF.

6) The Titan buff, Lu Xun, is not the one suggested in the survey, it's just a direct hp buff (+300), without the higher cost counter part nor the +5 range. It gives the Titan a significantly higher total HP than the Loyalist (3700 compared to the Loyalist 3100).
I would suggest to simply switch the current HP of the shield (2200hp) to the health (1200hp) of the unit, as was done for the Harbinger, so that the Titan benefit more from veterancy. That should be enough to "fix it" without changing anything big. That way, Titans will gain 220 HP every veterancy level instead of just 120, while keeping the same starting total amount of HP.
On a side note, I would suggest to do the same with the Fatboy and double the current veterancy requirements so that it works more like the other experimentals, rewarding veterancy better, but I guess that's another story (and since I never play UEF, I will let Sheppard suggest this in the next patch :mrgreen: ).

7) The Scathis energy cost seems intended (it's roughly double as before).

8) If t3 arties mass costs are reduced in a next version of the test mod, I suggest to adjust the costs of Mavor, Salvation and Yolona Oss as well, to prevent making them useless compared to several t3 arties.
I would even suggest to reduce mass cost of t3 arties by 20% and game enders by 25%, because with the last patch AOE buff that T3 arties recieved, and the static shield nerf (even if 15% instead of 50%) several t3 arties are probably already better than a single game ender, except maybe Yolona Oss (different mechanics).

Mass costs suggested (no need to change the other stats since they are not the limiting factor):
-20% mass for t3 arties and Yolona Oss=
Aeon Emissary (uab2302): 73200
Cybran Disruptor (urb2302): 69600
UEF Duke (ueb2302) : 72000
Seraphim Hovatham (I had no idea of this name until today!) (xsb2302):70800

-25% mass for arty/nuke game enders =
Salvation (xab2307) : 202500
Mavor (ueb2401): 224775
Seraphim Yolona Oss (xsb2401) : 187650
Last edited by pip on 03 Mar 2013, 20:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby Ze_PilOt » 03 Mar 2013, 19:06

ShadowKnight wrote:
- Allow the turret to move by roughly 5 degrees to each side. This allows a little leeway while keeping the turn rate of the unit the driving force behind its behaviour.
- Increase the unit's TurnFacingRate, TurnRate and MaxAcceleration, decrease the DragCoefficient and MaxSpeed. Might I suggest +30, +30, +0.2, -0.05, and -0.1 respectively as a starting point.



Doesn't work.
Nossa wrote:I've never played GPG or even heard of FA until FAF started blowing up.
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Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby Ze_PilOt » 03 Mar 2013, 20:01

ColonelSheppard wrote:i cant post them now as i'm on my laptop but atm they can basicly beat you 3v1 in mass, and because of this your enemy can just build 0,8:1 and take the rest for air, also commer kiting just became ridicolous


By the way, tested it without the balance mod, and it's the same if you anticipate the direction. (the problem solved by the change being the lagginess and unresponsiveness of units, nothing else).
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Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby Ze_PilOt » 03 Mar 2013, 20:11

Lu_Xun_17 wrote:- why is oblivion buffed without any reason ?


What ?
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Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby Ze_PilOt » 03 Mar 2013, 20:16

The changes Pip gave are pushed (except the sera T2 bot, not sure if it really need a speed nerf yet).
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Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby pip » 03 Mar 2013, 20:47

Ze_PilOt wrote:The changes Pip gave are pushed (except the sera T2 bot, not sure if it really need a speed nerf yet).


You didn't understand what I meant : I suggested a +0.2 speed buff to Ilshavoh, because it's arguably the strongest t2 bot (check the thread), but now the Ilshavoh speed buff is +0.3, because its speed was not 2.6 as I thought, but 2.5.

EDIT: you should recheck the ASF HP, I think something went wrong in Bitbucket.
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Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby Ze_PilOt » 03 Mar 2013, 21:03

My blueprint editor scanned the folder before a revert :)
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Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby Ze_PilOt » 03 Mar 2013, 21:06

Fixed.
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