Fixing ASF lag/swarm.

[BRNKoINSANITY]

I am not trying to propose a game balance around a single map... This happens on any large map with a dedicated air slot. The problem is just mostly related to Seton's. I do see what ZeP is saing about accumulation of fighters though. The decrease in fuel and decrease in wreckage value would probably help, as you would have to build air stages or carriers to go with the ASF or leave them grounded.

[Kryo]

true is, that the only fix to setons lag is a performance indicator in the lobby and idiots with 1 cpu dont play setons ^^

[Stratocaster]

-the time until you get the first ASF out increases
-ASF are already not really good against large t1 int swarms. They will be even worse (overkill etc). You will need much longer until you reach your critical mass.

Will you start making T1 inti swarms of 100, instead of ASF, with that change? Are you okay with CZAR vetting up so easily for kill ASF which are worth 6 XP each (CZAR needs only 40 xp per level), especially considering its elevation is high enough to kill the ASF? Rather than nerf CZAR, which costs 45k mass, why not make it so you do not need to be so careful with ASF vs them?

IMO, letting intis remain on the field isn't a bad thing, due to how people control intis. They don't patrol 'em around or move themm back and forth across the maps on whims, since they are not fast and are more limited on fuel. They must be strategically controlled, with quick reactions, if you really want to intercept air. It opens up the low-mid air game up a bit. Don't need to panic as much when you see 1-3 ASF (might be surprising to see what they do to transports), similar to how you don't really panic when you see 1-3 T3 Gunship or restorers on the field. Brings the cost closer inline with SAMs too, but you will see the DPS difference between them even more (and ASF balance is another topic).

This is like the talk about the ML cost decrease discussion. People say the cost of XP went up for a reason. It opened up the T3 land game a bit more--back in the day, people couldn't even imagine what percies could do to land experimentals. This opens up the T2 air game a bit, which is very under utilized, partly due to the ASF race, since they are just so powerful. IMO, this is a better solution to the energy increase, to delay ASF from getting out so soon. Solves the CZAR problem, makes staging more useful (would love to see more people try these, for repair purposes), less lag... I consider your statements as pluses I didn't yet touch on. I like.

[Zock]

Will you start making T1 inti swarms of 100, instead of ASF, with that change? Are you okay with CZAR vetting up so easily for kill ASF which are worth 6 XP each

No, the point is, when you go ASF in 1v1, your opponent will already have swarms of 100 inties, because he didn't had to pause his int production for going t3. To get aircontrol with your superiour tech you invested and risked so much now, you need a critical amount of ASF. This is already quite hard to archieve and the reason why going t3 air is a huge risk atm, making ASF more expensive and stronger will make it even harder.

Dunno about the CZAR. I don't think CZARs can level easy at ASF, because the ASF shoot it down (unless you fly directly into the laser).

@ICKEN, the game dont slow down so you have time to micro your LABs. Why should it slow down so you can micro ASF? You will still be able to micro without lag. Maybe not that good, but neither will your enemy. That won't change anything about the usefullness of t3 air or the skill or strategy needed. (unless you count beeing able to play with lag as strategy)

[BRNKoINSANITY]

Zock, is this any different than the time and mass sacrificed to move to t2 or t3 on land while your opponent is spamming the hell out of t1? As has been pointed out, there really isn't much of a cost difference between t2 F/B and t3 ASF. The benefits to team games would outweigh any slight disadvantage that might perhaps be given to 1v1.

On a side note, I really don't see much t3 air on 1v1... those games seem to revolve mostly around t1 inti and t2 bombers anyway.

[Stratocaster]

And flak easily handles many inti, while it struggests vs ASF, and those inti are slower than strat bombers. You can send your T3 air around the inti swarm and it is fast enough to make it out and put distance on them, if it survives all the shots (maybe with more HP). Then if it hits a repair pad... or maybe lure them into forward flak and watch how a few shots takes out huge chunks out of the swarm.

[Zock]

Zock, is this any different than the time and mass sacrificed to move to t2 or t3 on land while your opponent is spamming the hell out of t1?

Yes, you can easy defeat t1 land with t3 land. You can't defeat t1 air with t3 air that easy. You need to invest a lot more to win with your t3 vs t1 units.

On a side note, I really don't see much t3 air on 1v1... those games seem to revolve mostly around t1 inti and t2 bombers anyway.

thats exactly what im talking about. It is already a very huge risk for the reason explained above. Making it more expensive will make t3 air even more risky and completly unreachable in most games. It won't be a slight disadvantage, that one is already there. It will be the remove of a unit type. For what benefits? Reduce the numbers? That won't even help that much. There must be better solutions for the problem. (Propably change the effects will already do, without the need to make the complete tech level even less attractive in 1v1 then it is already)

And flak easily handles many inti, while it struggests vs ASF

When you take the risk to go to t3 air you must use it offensive to get the ground back you lost while you teched. You won't have flak over the enemy territory.

Then if it hits a repair pad... or maybe lure them into forward flak and watch how a few shots takes out huge chunks out of the swarm.

repairing costs as much as building new units, and you can't balance a game arround people who are stupid enough to follow you into flak, or try to follow ASF with ints at all.

[BRNKoINSANITY]

Ok, I can see the arguments for 1v1 play. Here is a proposal regarding everything so far to combine what I am seeing trending.

Current stats-
t3 ASF
mass: 400, energy: 40000, build time: 3000, fuel: 16:40
t2 F/B
mass: 420, energy: 8400, build time: 2400, fuel: 8:20
t1 Inti
mass: 50, energy: 2250, build time: 500, fuel: 5:00

Proposed new value for ASF-

-mass- 420 (+5% and matching t2)
-energy- 35000 (-12.5% and bringing it within better reach of 1v1 games)
-build time- 3000 (remains the same so that spam is not increased)
-Fuel- 12 min (~25% decrease, forces conservative use, building of stages, and lessens "swarming" behavior, while still having significantly more fuel than t2 and far greater speed)
-reduce wreckage mass value by 50% (less throw-away-regret and greater benefit in combat than in saving up)

I would ask people to critique but I know you will anyway

[ICKEN]

giving asf no fuel is a very bad idea. i am not sure where i have heard or read that but before supcom release asf also had no fuel but due game dynamics they decided to give them more. i really dont see any problem with the current situation....

secretly i am hoping you will change it so that i finally can quit this game in peace.

[Ze_PilOt]

If your interest in the game is resumed to the fuel of a single unit, I think you are playing the wrong game either way.

To be more direct : This is a forum for discussions, not for crying over things are not even remotely done.