Fixing ASF lag/swarm.

Re: Fixing ASF lag/swarm.

Postby FunkOff » 04 Mar 2013, 23:47

Here's my idea, it's got a few parts, most of which are approximations:
-ASF changes:
--MassCost 400 ---> 1000
--RateOfFire -50%
--Damage +200%
--MaxAirSpeed +20%
--Acceleration -50%
--Turn speed -30%
--Fuel --> 7 minutes
--FiringTolerance -80%

(Summary: New ASF should lose to new T1/T2 interceptors, but maintain effectiveness vs T3 and T4 air.)

-T1/T2 Interceptor:
--TurningSpeed + 20%
--FiringRange +10%
--FiringTolerance +200%

(Summary: Basically, this should allow T1/T2 interceptors to cost-effectively kill ASFs that wander too close.)

Carriers:
-Health +50% (except Atlantis)
-AA range + 200%
-Cybran cruise: AA projectiles track


This is what I'd start with. Trying not to change too much too fast.
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Re: Fixing ASF lag/swarm.

Postby Ionic » 04 Mar 2013, 23:52

We have to watch out that we do not end up with 4x the T1/T2 Interceptors.
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Re: Fixing ASF lag/swarm.

Postby FunkOff » 05 Mar 2013, 02:10

Files for the mod:
https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B59Uy ... sp=sharing

Shortcut goes on your desktop, init_AirBalance.lua goes in your FAForever/bin directory, and the AirBalance.air goes in FAForever/gamedata.

Change list:
All 4 ASF:
-- MaxAirSpeed to 30, from 25
-- Turnspeed and CombatTurnSpeed 1.4 (from 1.9)
-- Masscost 400 --> 1000
-- Vision 20 (from 32)
-- Fuel time 400 (from 1000)
-- Damage +200% (600 or 305 from 200 or 135)
-- Rate of Fire (0.5) fom 1
-- RateOfFire
All 4 T1 int:
--Turn speed 2.0 (from 1.5)

All Carriers:
-AA weapon range to 150
-Cybran Carrier projectile now tracks slightly

Purpose: Greatly reduce the utility of ASF spam.

How it works: ASFs now cost 1000 mass apiece and lose handily against their same cost in interceptors, even in large numbers. ASFs should now be useful mostly for killing T3 and T4 air, and less useful for killing T1 and T2 air. Also, Carriers have their same low DPS (a little lower than a Cruiser) but the additional range lends 2-3 Carriers the ability to reliably fend off tech-3 aircraft, and 5-7 Carriers (3-4 Atlantis) can stop experimental aircraft. (Although ASFs may still be preferable for this purpose.)
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Re: Fixing ASF lag/swarm.

Postby Ze_PilOt » 05 Mar 2013, 10:12

Would be easier for me if the blueprints are complete (no merge).
Nossa wrote:I've never played GPG or even heard of FA until FAF started blowing up.
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Re: Fixing ASF lag/swarm.

Postby Batmansrueckkehr » 05 Mar 2013, 11:51

well, aoen will be then the only faction which won't need asf. t2 fighters do the job cheaper with same effect.

why just dont decrease the asf's hp to 1000. so they are more vulnerable to land or sea or static aa while they still are best choice for catching t3 bomber.

i dont see the reason for the big changes. it just shiftes the swarms from t3 to t1/t2. and aoen only t2.

so your change are:
you give the asf 50% more dps
2 have the cost of 1 t3 bomber
2 asf will need about 6 seconds to get the t3 bomber down, once they reach him

this change helps to get rid of asf swarms, that's for sure... but i think it is too radical.

reduce asf's health so they won't fly over flak without any casualties. even one sam salve would kill 1 asf.
additional you get 4 asf for a t3 bomber and those 4 can catch him and kill him in time. when asf swarms fight each other the fight is over faster.
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Re: Fixing ASF lag/swarm.

Postby pip » 05 Mar 2013, 12:14

Batmansrueckkehr wrote:well, aoen will be then the only faction which won't need asf. t2 fighters do the job cheaper with same effect.

why just dont decrease the asf's hp to 1000. so they are more vulnerable to land or sea or static aa while they still are best choice for catching t3 bomber.

i dont see the reason for the big changes. it just shiftes the swarms from t3 to t1/t2. and aoen only t2.

so your change are:
you give the asf 50% more dps
2 have the cost of 1 t3 bomber
2 asf will need about 6 seconds to get the t3 bomber down, once they reach him

this change helps to get rid of asf swarms, that's for sure... but i think it is too radical.

reduce asf's health so they won't fly over flak without any casualties. even one sam salve would kill 1 asf.
additional you get 4 asf for a t3 bomber and those 4 can catch him and kill him in time. when asf swarms fight each other the fight is over faster.


In the current version of the balance patch, that's exactly the intention. ASF have around 1800 HP so that they suffer more casualties from ground and naval AA. Making ASF 1000 HP only will make Swiftwinds and Restorers too strong. I think 1800 HP ASF should be tested a bit more than one game before trying more radical and completely different changes.

Also, giving a small AOE to SAMs and Cruisers / Carriers would discourage to have big blobs of ASF because casualties would be really severe. It would not affect balance against bombers much, but it would against gunships though (gunships would have to be spread out against Cruisers, it's more about micro than balance though).
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Re: Fixing ASF lag/swarm.

Postby Batmansrueckkehr » 05 Mar 2013, 13:48

you are right pip - i forgot rerstrorers.

they could really become a pain. i think 3:1 asf to restr is a good ratio masswise (even with 1800 hp)- but please keep in mid that you can't spam 3 times more asf than restros. so increasing bt of restroes could work.
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Re: Fixing ASF lag/swarm.

Postby Veta » 05 Mar 2013, 20:04

FunkOff wrote:snip
This is what I'd start with. Trying not to change too much too fast.


this is a good start although it seems counter intuitive that ASFs are anti-gunship/bomber and interceptors are anti-ASF. That's fine though as mechanically the game will work correctly. After all energy storage isn't labelled 'research overcharge'. And if a rename/re-unit description is needed that can be done easily too.

In general giving carrier units better AA is also a good move - CZAR/Atlanatis/Carriers should essentially be no-fly zones for interceptors with the above changes. I'm concerned whether this might favor Aeon because of their T2 fighter/Czar. Perhaps making Swiftwinds fighter-bombers again would solve that (I read this was the case in beta?) but would require some rebalance of the unit (not a problem since we have 3 other example fighter-bombers). Well in general it would be nice if T2 air didn't just make T1 obsolete.
FA is a game of economic micromanagement (what StarCraft players mistakenly call 'macro') and tactical trumping (e.g. T2 PD countering T1 Spam).
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Re: Fixing ASF lag/swarm.

Postby Koecher » 05 Mar 2013, 21:31

Ok, first of all I have to admit, that I havent read all the previous thousands of posts :oops:

Concerning countering ASF swarms and get back to the air, I had the following idea:
SAMs are pretty bad at fighting ASF swarms as they are targeting One ASF after another
Also ASF swarms togehter have a huge amount of HPs which need means there is a lot of Damage done SAMs
By increasing the DPS of SAMs or reducing the ASF HPs, it would have a significant influence to the balance with low unit counts
As ASF swarms usually stick together, giving SAMs (and other AA Missiles) a splash-damage (DamageRadius) should be able to fight ASF swarms pretty well (and give the player the ability to get back into the air)

For Sandboxing, I quickly made the attached Mod which set DamageRadius for the UEF (and olny UEF) SAM to 2. (For comparison, for FLAKs its 4)
Infact this needs some further adjustments (maybe 2 is to much aswell), but its good enough to demonstrate the idea. Have fun sandboxing (if you want to)
Attachments
SAM splash.rar
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Re: Fixing ASF lag/swarm.

Postby Badsearcher » 05 Mar 2013, 23:41

Thank you Koecher, I really think it's arbitrary that people aren't considering that t3 should also have splash damage.
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