Monkey lord cost reduction.

[Stratocaster]

1) That's sandbox. 2) Percies are much slower (0.5 speed slower). 3) If you see 10 percies, would you send your ML right at them, while they're in formation? 4) Percies take much longer to build... even if I focus on eco, getting all my defendable mass extractors to t2 takes 10 minutes.

All theory. Speed makes a considerable difference. Put it into a real game. You see a ML being built mid in the water on setons. You are beach. You switch to making percivals, since that ML is likely to roll right through mid or possibly right up on your shore, and air superiority "was" even, as your air player is now switching to torp bombers or gunships or mercies, and is now behind. If that ML avoids your percies on beach, or goes up middle, i bet your percies will not be very effective. If it goes up middle, your percies will likely be strung out, and you will need to invest time in grouping them up, so they all shoot at once, instead of getting lasered down 1 at a time. On top of that, what if your omni was mid and you can't see it? Percies not so good there?

What if your back guy made a GC instead and you made T3 PD and the ML went mid? If the guy controlled the ML saw the GC, with 2.5 speed, the ML would be able to get away with 2.7, especially if the GC stopped. With 0.2 extra speed, it just has enough to create a gap and create a line of destruction on the run through a side base, though damaged. It wouldn't be able to stop and target your T3 PD, but it may stop to target your ACU. What if they had no omni, and had to rely on scouts? The speed gets targets in laser range sooner, similar to extending the range, but without creating out ranging balance issues. Sound useful for such a very slight change? Drastic changes suck.

[HyperNova]

No! No! No! No! No!

ML is already balanced. Just leave it alone. Cybran is powerful enough. ML will always get smashed by percies. That's the counter. Deal with it. HP buff? Don't matter, Percies will still smash it. Percies are anti EXP. No to the speed buff, can't have ML running down fatboys. Monkey lord is a well balance EXP. You get it too fast already. ML is cheap enough. Stop asking for more.

Use your head people. I'm I the only one who turn off ML's weapons before attacking? Yes Turn off the bolters before you attack. When in range turn the weapons on. Work perfect versus people who never air scout.

---CybranKiller---

[Stratocaster]

Yes, I turn off the weapon to keep the bolters from giving away location, but making it shorter range makes it less micro intensive to get such an effect, but at 45 range (original 60), it's still worth doing. Dude, just back up your fatboy with percies. The ML would back up the Mega, to keep the fatboy from raping. I wonder how that would go, ML + Mega, vs Fatboy + Percies. I dunno, but I think my ML suggestion wouldn't make the cybran side any stronger in that situation. The bolters are genuinely useful in that case vs the percies, but, that's only UEF vs Cyb.

The issue that is trying to be addressed is trying to find the ML is better niche or role, in the late game, after that "rushing window" is over, and you can expect GC, Ytho, more T3 PD, etc on the field. One guy wants to extend that rushing window, in the "wrong" direction. While I'm trying to see what small tweaks can be done to deal with confrontations with GCs and Ytho, lone Fatboys, and light static defenses. Makes it more of a "rush weapon" in a sense that it rushes/sneaks in and goes around defenses to kill high value targets, rather than slowly push.

[BRNKoINSANITY]

The monkey is not a late game unit... the mega and the scathis are. Why try to turn a unit into something it is not? Cybran has a good mix of EXP that fill multiple roles. There is no reason to change things.

[Sunny]

Very well. I propose changing the thread to ML buff and altering the following:

Microwave range from 30 -> 37
Speed from 2.5 -> 3
Electron bolters from 150 -> 250
Nanite missiles from 40 -> 200
Meson torpedos from 50 -> 200

As it stands, the electron bolters are little more than an early warning to the opponent that you're coming, and the missiles and torpedos are both useless. I feel 200 is the minimum to be able to say this unit truly has any sort of self-sufficiency.

Perfect suggestions!

I would make range no more, than 35 and speed even faster, than 3.
TBH ML was never a big concern even in 3599.
FYI in 3599 it costed 17k mass, I'm used to do it in 8 minutes with reclaim and 2 t2 PPs on Daroza's and in 13 minutes on Isis 1v1. But! I also build GC (was 23k mass, I believe) in 11 minutes on Daroza's and in 15 minutes on Isis.

So Vodoo's statement about getting ML together in 11 minutes in team games in 3599 should sound like getting it in 9-10 minutes NOW and in 8 minutes in team games in 3599. I'll also remind you, that this was done for coolness and fun, not because it was OPed. Restorer spam in minute 6-7- good example of thing, what players did, because of it OPness. I did it alot too

There is no point to compare it mass-wise with t3 bots because of this. While you have you ML 72% build, manifestation of 43% it's mass cost (like 7k in 3599 and lol11k now) which means 6 bricks or 9 (or 3 t3 bombers with energy!) kills your comm or base. If you commit 22k (17k in 3599) to something, this something should outclass anything not requiring such commitment. And it is weak. You can kill it with OCs even with ust gun upped comm with a few energy storages plainly w/o any problem, which is ridiculous for me.

Well, if you don't want to make it outclass t3 bots, I'd suggest just implementing JeeVeS's suggestions. Mb in may edition.

Stealth is cool, but cybran have deceiver for some fun price for it, so I'm not ready to hear of it as of big ML's advantage.

So, I'm with JeeVeS and FunkOff in terms of "if not nerfing the price, just make it worth it".
I like sort of people, suggesting something constructive, instead of plain trolling, or uselessly criticizing ^^
I would change it in direction of being a base-storm unit (as it is designed in SC), for Mega, I would buff even more it's HP and nerf a bit it's dps. To keep ML "cybran", I would change speed at first place, or to make it notably fast unit (will cause need to rebalance it vs Harbs and Sera T3 tanks, this might be dealt with giving ML real bad turn rate), or would give the lazer at least range of 35 to make it more effective against heavy t3s and OCs.

Also I agree with statement that being cheap it's more sort of nuke. That's because nuke silo cost is silly. It should cost at least like an exp alone, no less than 22k, and should be considered as an option after some t4 engagements, not before.

In the end, I'll avdertise my thread about similar gameplay issues about t2 tank gameplay. On one side - who cares, as UEF and cybran just rush to t3 for reliable high-tech tanks, but why so?
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=3087

[Stratocaster]

@BRNK So you find it acceptable that the ML isn't build beyond that little window of opportunity, before GC, Ytho, T3 PD, 10+ perci are out and can easily stop it? Acceptable that its presence is very limited in the game, as an exp that costs only a little less than a Ytho? The mega costs almost 2x more at 37.5k mass.

2.7 ain't so fast that a ML can go diagonally, cutting a secant in a GC or Ytho's attack range, and get out with a lot of HP. Depending on how you move the GC, you can direct it.

You're American, so how's this for an analogy: think of a 1v1, between a running back (ML) and linebacker (GC/Ytho)? If the linebacker was about the same speed as the running back and there were boundaries on the side, do you think the running back has a chance to get by cleanly? How about if the running back were 8% faster (+0.2 of 2.5 is 8%)? Considering the linebacker could cut ya off, due to boundaries, there's no change. Make it so the boundaries are wider and there are things to hide behind, what then? Now consider this with weapon ranges in mind... no significant change to most people, but the ML does have a chance at least, if sneaky enough, and since it can get things in range of its laser sooner, it can kill things easier, or do more damage before dying.

My 0.2 speed increase isn't just made it up. I actually was thinking between 0.1 (4% increase) and 0.2, but didn't know if you could go 0.15 (6%). I now see that the Megalith is 0.25 faster than a Fatboy, so that .15 is possible. The Mega has shorter range, 64 vs 100, and it struggles versus the Fatboy. That's a 37.5k unit with 110k hp struggling vs a 28k unit with 32.5k hp (hp+shield combined), but is intended. The ML was the Fatboy's nemesis from vanilla, and shares many similarities.

See unitDB comparison: http://www.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/un ... 01,XSL0401

=====

It's worth exploring some other tweaks. Ze_pilot made these thread for discussion, rather than voting. Bring up a concern and the community decides on the route to take, tuning the values. I consider JeeVes suggestions as too drastic, as it would make it so strong that people would complain. I imagine with those values that Sunny thought were perfect, it would beat the Fatboy and Ytho, can maybe outplay a Mega, and bring a GC deep in the red... or just go around it easily, since it's 20% faster, with Sunny suggesting even faster. You should make small and simple changes, with clear objectives and reasoning, as to not upset the balance. Remember that changes to an unit multiply as more of those units come out on the field... so 2 MLs just became super powerful, and 3, ZOMG, screwed now!

[BRNKoINSANITY]

I think it fills it's niche slot nicely... sabotage and base defense, supporting a mega, sending in with a large army, etc. The other factions have one land EXP while cyb has two, obviously for different roles. I would not be against a SLIGHT speed bump, but range/cost/dps/ etc are fine. I would not get the football analogy lol, as I don't follow sports.

[Stratocaster]

It's like playing tag, except you gotta tackle, wrestling them down to the ground, where a light touch won't stop them. Unlike tag, since they will become successful and score big points if they pass. The boundaries would be like the width of the land. Say the middle of setons, the land between the seas is the boundary. Not much room to work with, if a GC/Ytho is positioned in it. Basically just saying, it's not a drastic change, but before, it had no chance, but now, it has an option in some scenarios.

[Cantor]

The monkeylord:

- costs as much as 16.4 bricks
- has the same DPS as 11.2 bricks
- has the same HP as 5 bricks
- has lower range than a brick (30 vs 35)
- is faster than a brick (2.5 vs 2) but slower turn rate (25 vs 60)
- has the build time of 3.3 bricks (!!!)

Clearly, mass-for-mass, the monkeylord is totally useless. The only thing it has going for it is its better speed (+0.5), but bricks can be air dropped and monkeylords can't. Another advantage bricks have is that they don't need to stay together as one chunk, but can attack on multiple fronts. Another advantage is that a brick can start to do work as soon as you've spent 1280 mass. With a monkey you need to invest a lot more before you can use it. The biggest difference between a monkeylord and T3 is actually its low build time. The build time is also the reason why it's dangerous in noob team games because it can be spammed up so quickly even if you don't have build capacity.

Bricks are actually not the most effective t3 by a long shot, and percy's aren't either. Aeon harbingers are.

For the price of a monkeylord you can get 25 harbingers, which have 3.3x the HP of a monkeylord (which is almost as much as HP as a mega and a monkeylord combined) , are faster (speed 3) turn much faster (turn rate 120), have twice its dps, and slightly lower range (28 vs 30, but this is easily offset by their speed). On top of that aeon also get extremely cost effective mobile shields (second only to uef). So I have no idea why people are freaking out over team monkeylord rush but not over team harbinger rush, which is much more dangerous, and despite the monkey's advantage in build time, can actually land about double the DPS in the enemy's base before the monkey is even completed, and because they swarm out and have 3.3x the HP, is much harder to get rid of.

So if there is a concern about monkeylord rush I'd suggest increasing the build time, but also up its stats to let it be a bit less out of whack compared to t3. The same goes, to a lesser degree, for the other short range experimentals. In my tests in sandbox mode, all t3 bots win against all t4 bots mass for mass with minimal casualties, and aeon harbingers easily beat the other t3. Not to mention that harbs can immediately suck up the mass after a t4 kill And they regen faster.

[JeeVeS]

Once again, a 9.5% mass reduction is not drastic. Any argument based around stealth is flawed. There are several cheap ways for cybran to use stealth both in and out of water. This talk of ML sneaking places in the late game is absolutely senseless. There will always be omni, and there will always be scouting. Percies and bricks are 80% as fast. They will always be able to move into position given proper intel. This isn't a uef-only problem. Replace 10 percies with 15 harbs and the ML is now slower AND outgunned.

This fixation on +.15 speed making some colossal difference in real scenarios is absurd. +.5 isn't enough to out-maneuver percies from a decent player, what makes you think .1-.2 will do anything at all?

If you want to include an increase in build time with the mass reduction, fine. Build capacity is rarely a problem with the way t1 engies are spammed.