Monkey lord cost reduction.

[Voodoo]

I think a little buff for the microwave laser range would be nice, nothing more.

[Gyle]

I'm against this, and my argument is : it was cheaper in 3599, and 90% of teamgames involving cybran was ML rush. Stupid.

Agree with this 100%. Maybe tweak the balance between cost and build time?

[Poch]

I find it crazy to hear people saying ML has to be buffed. It is really easy to rush, very hard/impossible to counter (when ennemy rushed it and youre still at T2 - no cheap or fast outrange - no omni - unit spam do not really helps), the stealth is AWESOME and you can't just get omni everywhere. In some way getting a spider is easier than getting omni ^^ Omni energy cost in insane. As a cybran vs UEF, i will never worry about omni if i get a T2 radar in front of my base and decent scouting informations on ennemy base. As any other race playing against cybran, i feel obsessed with the need of an omni radar, right here, right now. Can even omni match the range of a T2 arty ? By the way, being a fan of T2 arty, i almost never seen them killing a spider, it just walks too fast. Fatboy is slain in pieces by T2 artys but not spider.

When spider pops out in front of defense line, even well defended ones, if it has the smallest T1 army with it, it will just make a huge hole and penetrate base. It is the single unit that alone, has winned the most important number of games i can recall of. How much mass do you need to get the T3 land facs + enough percies to counter it ? How much mass if you just rush it as cybran ACU builder ? Since SC1 beta, that feeling has always been there.

At the beginning of FA times you had 2 great winning strategies as a back player : get a spider on front at minute 15, or get a nuke at minute 15. I'm convinced those strategies can still work, by the way ^^

The old times on Setons where you had that spider on minute 12 to 18 and no one was near ready to handle it, always felt like "OMG we are all dooomed"... I dont know, even in late game, spider is very effective because of its stealth hability and of his very powerfull laser. It has drawbacks, but spiders just work fantastic i find. Never thought of them as weak units, they are somehow limited, but you just have to use it as it is supposed to be : surprise attack in front or back of ennemy base, when he is looking elsewhere ! It is the kind of unit that makes you sacrifice a T3 bomber just to take out ennemy radar prior attacking.

Dont talk to me about scouting, you can't scout EVERYTHING, especially when it comes to allow long range firing on stealth units.

After minute 15 of any games (and before 30), if ennemy has been quiet for like a few minutes and than last fight was with T2 units, i am always scared / horrified / traumatized by thinking "maybe he stopped all eco since last time i scouted him and ... wait ! He could have popped a ML while a built a bunch of T2 crap units... I am done !"

So late game, maybe less usefull, but i'll aways find it more usefull than a fatboy (just good for support, not for front line pushing), and cybrans have maybe the most awesome and complementary / affordable front lines XP of the games. Give UEF a very good close combat unit before buffing ML even more, when cybran has already super effective T4 gunship, super effective T4 arty (megalith), and super effective T4 close combat unit.

Even a GC which was originally designed to be "the most resistant and hard to kill unit of the game" loses HP at a very fast rate when facing a spider. If you buff ML as a more effective support, then you have to nerf its primary weapon damage, commander sniping is just too easy with ML on early T3.

My 2 cents ^^

[Ze_PilOt]

The problem with the ML currently are probably the players. They are too greedy or think that a cheap T4 should destroy a base easily.

Rush a ML, gain map control, don't go to the enemy base. Just use it so nothing come out. Force your enemy to build his T4 with less mass (you own the map now), and win the game.

The problem right now is that people are doing a ML, ignore the whole map, and rush mindlessly to die into the enemy base, basically giving mass to the enemy.

[Poch]

AS far as i have seen, before omni if the ennemy has not a ton of specific T3 counter units right on your path, going straight to ennemy base with the spider, works almost every time ^^

The unit is meant to sneak behind ennemy lines, be used before game too far into T3 or (and it is my favorite) has a super support unit in a middle of an army, maybe composed of T1/T2 units in that case (you rushed ML, remember ? so no mass for T3 units ^^).

I am tired of people sending XPs without shields, air cover, mobile AA, and above all without A DECENT ARMY. You should build Xps to complement army IMO. They are there to force ennemy front lines while allowing your other units to survive. The spider makes a wonderfull job at this.

[Ze_PilOt]

I am tired of people sending XPs without shields, air cover, mobile AA, and above all without A DECENT ARMY. You should build Xps to complement army IMO. They are there to force ennemy front lines while allowing your other units to survive. The spider makes a wonderfull job at this.

<3

[ColonelSheppard]

I am tired of people sending XPs without shields.

*hust* Cybran

however, i just think that atm the monkeylord is outclassed by the other experimentals because:

- it is raped by Percies or Bricks in 1v1 (you dont have mobile shields in 1v1 to block a Percie initial strike)
- it is outclassed by other experimentals in teamgames (spotted ML = rush GC while ML is on the way)
- it is even outclassed by Commander, i remember a sera play with T3 suite just building a shield and a bunsh of e-storrages and pew-pew overcharge the ML

[Ze_PilOt]

Ok, but it's not supposed to be a front-assault unit. You have the megalith for that.

[Plasma_Wolf]

Very well. I propose changing the thread to ML buff and altering the following:

Microwave range from 30 -> 37
Speed from 2.5 -> 3
Electron bolters from 150 -> 250
Nanite missiles from 40 -> 200
Meson torpedos from 50 -> 200

As it stands, the electron bolters are little more than an early warning to the opponent that you're coming, and the missiles and torpedos are both useless. I feel 200 is the minimum to be able to say this unit truly has any sort of self-sufficiency.

This makes the ML laser range higher than the percival/brick range and the speed a lot higher (50%). Harbingers can just keep up while being outranged. You have just given the best example of making the ML completely overpowered.

In general, an increase in laser range will make it impossible to properly counter it with T3 bots.

[ColonelSheppard]

Ok, but it's not supposed to be a front-assault unit. You have the megalith for that.

what to use it then for?