Soulreaper veterancy nerf & HARMS hp nerf.

[Mycen]

I could see the HARMS being an issue if it sat on the sea floor and only died to torps, but that's not the case. I'm actually surprised the balance proposal wasnt to have it sit Lower in the water.

Honestly, that should be part of the proposed changes, but considering the thread is about whether to nerf it or not, I'm not surprised that changes which would strengthen it are not being discussed. Really though, isn't only being vulnerable to torpedoes the whole point of an underwater platform? Of course, then maybe lowering its HP would become a reasonable change...

[CocoaMoko]

I wasn't gonna post here because these changes wouldn't really effect me. But I'm pretty sure the HARMS costs 3k mass. And doesn't move, and sits at the surface so anything with more then 0 area damage can kill them.


These arguments about ground firing or not ground firing becaus their navy then kills you are meaningless. Ground fire is effective. Period. The unit can't move and every 3k mass in HARMS is 3k mass that isnt in mobile units to fight your navy.

As long as the body of water your fighting in is greater then 80 range I don't see the issue.

I could see the HARMS being an issue if it sat on the sea floor and only died to torps, but that's not the case. I'm actually surprised the balance proposal wasnt to have it sit Lower in the water.

I'll state once again: every shot your battleship takes at a HARMS is any extra shot their battleships take at yours. So, let's see, the highest DPS (http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.p ... 02,URS0302) for battleships is 225. Which means it will take almost 50 seconds to kill this, and this is assuming that all the projectiles make contact (which they often don't). 50 seconds per battleship for each HARMS means that's 50 seconds the enemy battleships subs or even friggin destroyers have to pummel your battleships. Use your cruisers to kill the HARMS? They get obliterated in one or two hits by enemy battleships.
And let's not forget that everything is forced to stand still in ground attack mode, making them even easier targets. Even a handful of flippin cruisers can hit them at this point.
Oh, and let's not forget that IN that 50 seconds per HARMS (you'll probably have more than one battelship, so let's say max 20 seconds each), the enemy has a handful of SCU on the seabed which also cannot be hit, building even more HARMS. So by the time you kill a few, either more have taken their place, OR, you now have to manually target the new/building HARMS. And all the time you have to micro the ground attack coordinates you're not microing or paying attention to other things you should.

Unnecessary micro, basically an exploitation of the games engine moreso than a gameplay feature. All around ridiculous. So no, your hypothetical "i dont see the problem" based arguments are meaningless in fact. When you dress the scenario up all pretty and nice of course you can counter HARMS with ground-targetting whatever. Forget those made up scenarios, I provided a replay which has only been viewed by 4 people ahah, which shows just how cheap present HARMS are in real-world situation. And that's only one example. And it's a shame that presently the vote is not in favor of at least the HP nerf. I suppose masses of uninformed opinions are going to win out over a few opinions that actually make sense.


Oh well, either way, I'm sure it wont....*sunglasses* HARM the game. YEEEEAAAAAAAAAAA

[-_V_-]

Non matter what, the HARMS is a defense/ support structure.

How about we promote attack and make defense more expensive!

I know i'm off topic, but I would suggest a speed buff of the t2 navy for next patch, and why not dos buff as well.

Take defensive strat down! Don't wanna die ? Attack first and win first

[brn4meplz]

And let's not forget that everything is forced to stand still in ground attack mode, making them even easier targets. Even a handful of flippin cruisers can hit them at this point.
Oh, and let's not forget that IN that 50 seconds per HARMS (you'll probably have more than one battelship, so let's say max 20 seconds each), the enemy has a handful of SCU on the seabed which also cannot be hit, building even more HARMS. So by the time you kill a few, either more have taken their place, OR, you now have to manually target the new/building HARMS. And all the time you have to micro the ground attack coordinates you're not microing or paying attention to other things you should.

Unnecessary micro, basically an exploitation of the games engine moreso than a gameplay feature. All around ridiculous. So no, your hypothetical "i dont see the problem" based arguments are meaningless in fact. When you dress the scenario up all pretty and nice of course you can counter HARMS with ground-targetting whatever. Forget those made up scenarios, I provided a replay which has only been viewed by 4 people ahah, which shows just how cheap present HARMS are in real-world situation. And that's only one example. And it's a shame that presently the vote is not in favor of at least the HP nerf. I suppose masses of uninformed opinions are going to win out over a few opinions that actually make sense.


Oh well, either way, I'm sure it wont....*sunglasses* HARM the game. YEEEEAAAAAAAAAAA

Again, the HARMs doesn't move. Every 3 HARM's is an additional battleship for you or a bunch of destroyers/cruisers. In a hypothetical equal eco game(because you ALWAYS have to base balance on fairness) Those immobile HARMs contribute absolutely 0 DPS to a Naval engagement. You simply use your mobile forces to stay away from the defences As the player who didn't invest in defense you either defeat him in open water and then kill the HARMs or you continue to contain him and barrage at targets of opportunity when you can. Containing him grants you map control benefits like Mass points which in turn gives you larger forces.

The HARMs provides area defence, it doesn't get control of more mass for you. It just sits there. It even sucks at sitting there. You want to talk about Intended? Lets remove the Ground targeting, make the HARMs what it WAS intended to be. Let it sit on the sea floor. Then complain about it's effectiveness. As it stand right now. If a Cybran player kicks you out of the water with HARMs, then he's just showing off his economy. Cause he could probably do it with destroyers easier.

I haven't even gotten into the fact that Battleship shots(from any faction) are incredibly easy to dodge. A movement order every few seconds ensures you're units don't die.(Watch a Mantis/Striker fire, Now imagine that shot having to travel 128-150 range, and how long that takes)

[CocoaMoko]

Once again, I don't care about hypotheticals.

And you're missing the point. Yes, the fact that HARMS doesn't move is a disadvantage.
However, the point I'm making primarily, is that a few SCUs can build harms smack dab in the middle of a bunch of naval units with little resistance. Torps just don't do enough damage fast enough to either kill the SCUs or the HARMS being built. The HARMS appears to be being built on the surface, just like an Atlantis for instance, but it can't be targetted on the surface like an Atlantis.

And all that dodging then manually targetting stuff sounds nice, hypothetically, but I'm willing to bet you haven't tried it too often in an actual game. Have fun doing all that dodging, ground attacking, while also managing your air, scouting, other attacks, etc etc. Microing isn't bad, needless microing is dumb.

The main issue:
Really, HARMS shouldn't be able to be hit my any surface weapon after it's built. That's the entire point of it. It should be as strong as it is, but it's bugged. You SHOULDN'T be able to hit it with surface fire after it's been built, and you SHOULD be able to hit it with surface fire while it's being built. The fact that it is the reverse of that right now is why an HP nerf is the most logical option. But it's current stats would be decent with this feature fixed.

[Nombringer]

Just keep it as it is, but change the FAF topic to:

HARMS can be killed by ground firing.


Its all you need to do to nerf it.....

[-_V_-]

Fortunately they can, they would be crazy OP otherwise.
It's already a pain to get them as it is

[ColonelSheppard]

The main issue:
Really, HARMS shouldn't be able to be hit my any surface weapon after it's built. That's the entire point of it. It should be as strong as it is, but it's bugged. You SHOULDN'T be able to hit it with surface fire after it's been built, and you SHOULD be able to hit it with surface fire while it's being built. The fact that it is the reverse of that right now is why an HP nerf is the most logical option. But it's current stats would be decent with this feature fixed.

surface is the counter atm, removing the only counter of a unit is not thaaaat good

[CocoaMoko]

The main issue:
Really, HARMS shouldn't be able to be hit my any surface weapon after it's built. That's the entire point of it. It should be as strong as it is, but it's bugged. You SHOULDN'T be able to hit it with surface fire after it's been built, and you SHOULD be able to hit it with surface fire while it's being built. The fact that it is the reverse of that right now is why an HP nerf is the most logical option. But it's current stats would be decent with this feature fixed.

surface is the counter atm, removing the only counter of a unit is not thaaaat good

Like I said, that's more of an abuse of the games engine, not having them deep enough. It's as if when it was being made someone was thinking "Yea let's make Cybran a T3 underwater torpedo system! Awesome! Oh wait, it can be hit by surface fire....let's call that a counter!" It's more of an oversight, not a feature.

HARMS were made because T1 and T2 torp launchers get killed by surface fire easily. Even the more powerful T2 torp is outranged by every T2 naval units sans subs. It is on the seabed because only torps are supposed to be able to hit it. It should only be hit by torps.

This is why it should A) not be able to be hit by surface fire and B) have less HP since all torpedo weapons are generally weaker than surface fire.

If surface fire is allegedly THE counter to HARMS, then for heaven's sake, put them up on the freaking surface to save us the needless micro of ground targetting them haha. But, as I said before, that is not their role, so it should have it's stats geared towards it role, not just some random oh-you-have-to-ground-target-this naval unit. The way you guys are arguing this, it's pretty much the only unit in the game you HAVE to ground target with your usually auto-targetting surface-fire units to kill. How lame is that.

[ColonelSheppard]

you are talking about buffing them why everybody else wants to nerf them, did you notice that?