Soulreaper veterancy nerf & HARMS hp nerf.

[FunkOff]

And torpedo bombers. And Bombers in ground fire too.

I think HARMS are basically subs that can't move, but cost-effectively beat all other subs by a wide margin. They're in a good place. All of the methods for killing HARMS work against subs that can move too... UEF battleship ground fire being one of the only ways to fight seraphim T3 sub spam.

[Pathogenic]

And torpedo bombers. And Bombers in ground fire too.

I think HARMS are basically subs that can't move, but cost-effectively beat all other subs by a wide margin. They're in a good place. All of the methods for killing HARMS work against subs that can move too... UEF battleship ground fire being one of the only ways to fight seraphim T3 sub spam.

How do you do that effectively? The subs, unlike the HARMs, can move, and more often than not are moving. How do you manage the micro to do that properly in a hectic naval battle?

[Typo91]

Skilzat99X wrote:

Difference is T3 PD can be hit by MML, TML, mobile arty, other T3 pd, bombers. HARMS can be hit by...torps

actually everything you just said, can hit both... Harms can be hit by t3 PD even... soo ALL that PLUS Anything that does the slightest AOE damage, t1 UEF frig, t1 arty units, t1 bombers, lots of fun things kill harms. Battleships mostly.

agree for small nerf Soulreaper..
not agree about harms, cybran have nothing else in late navy

Cybran have one of the BEST late navies in the game.

Few people know that t2 Dessies can kill t3 sera subs in groups with ease in full on attacks(unless kited) (read: the serasubs have to work around them, and can't just charge in) and if you mix t3 sonar, now the serasubs have to take torpedos in the face to get close to see the enemy.

Also they have t3 sonar that hides the whole thing, they have t2 subs that in numbers > t3 sera subs

There battleships have good range, great rates of fire, they can send in groups of bricks under water that can practically stop incoming torpedo fire and protect your boats.

They have the megalith, which is the king of underwater torp defense and offense, and moves FASTER underwater!

if you have never been attacked by a player mixing t3 sonars, with battleships, with support navy, you havn't been playing anyone good with cybran... its ALL about the stealth.

The steath boat spews anti torps also. whats not to like?

Always always kill radars when your cybran

Also, Currently you never need anything else once you get to battleships, if you have say 5 or more, with the high rate of fire, someone spaming subs on you doesn't have a chance if you start ground firing... (yea cheap, but everyone does it, so its part of the game till those subs figure out how to go a little deeper.)

[CocoaMoko]

To everyone who said "you can hit HARMS with X ground fire". Yes, obviously you can. Have fun microing all your forces to kill a bunch of HARMS being built by underwater SCUs while the enemy naval is pounding your forces, since their surface fire is going to an underwater unit. If your battleship is hammering the enemies battleship, then say goodbye to your fleet pretty soon. etc etc etc.

This hypothetical "well technically you CAN hit it with blah blah blah" is outdone by actual scenarios. I don't care what you CAN do, but will what you do be effective? You CAN block a nuke with an ASF or any air unit, but does that mean you stop building SMD? The hypothetical consequences of the game's full-sim engine allowing things to hit stuff they can't also target (perhaps even stuff they shouldn't be able to hit) doesn't mean anything for balance.

Again, reference the replay I posted (how many of you actually did before replying, lol) since one player in that game is indeed ground targetting a lot. The navies are still getting owned.

Allow it to be targetted by surface fire while being built, or cut it's HP as suggested.

[ColonelSheppard]

groundfiring HARMs is like flak against ints
It's super super effective

[Typo91]

groundfiring HARMs is like flak against ints
It's super super effective

Not sure if you are trying to be sarcastic, Because flak REALLY IS great against ASF, if used a certain way.

Kinda like another unit, that if told to ground fire, will kill 50 ASF, that would normally take it out in a heart beat.

I peeked at the replay in question, its like watching a girl fight... i didn't see proper anything in the replay. Micro could have been a lot better, and choice of what to attack could have been a lot better. and the Eco's where not equal, so its not a good comparison.

Granted when you can see both sides, its easy to be judgmental, but scouting could have been better.

[Mycen]

Allow it to be targetted by surface fire while being built

This seems to be the most appropriate fix. Every other submersible naval unit is either constructed above water or by something that is above water. There is no reason for the HARMS to be an exception.

[noms]

/deleted

[Stratocaster]

I played a game of Supreme Destruction mod, and the Soul Rippers get 20% per vet level... RIDICULOUS 180k Soul Rippers that get full hp after killing a few things. A player that obviously played the mod before made 3 of them plus many ASF just waltzed right in and destroyed all. I wonder if the new UEF AA ship would've even did anything to it... seems that if you lose air suprem, nothing can stop 'em. Only 10% hp in regular FAF, I know, but the mod shows how stupidly powerful they can be with vet.

[brn4meplz]

I wasn't gonna post here because these changes wouldn't really effect me. But I'm pretty sure the HARMS costs 3k mass. And doesn't move, and sits at the surface so anything with more then 0 area damage can kill them.


These arguments about ground firing or not ground firing becaus their navy then kills you are meaningless. Ground fire is effective. Period. The unit can't move and every 3k mass in HARMS is 3k mass that isnt in mobile units to fight your navy.

As long as the body of water your fighting in is greater then 80 range I don't see the issue.

I could see the HARMS being an issue if it sat on the sea floor and only died to torps, but that's not the case. I'm actually surprised the balance proposal wasnt to have it sit Lower in the water.