Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

Postby dstojkov » 22 Feb 2013, 17:45

hmm ... t1 should be faster than t2 ...


Than lets do this lets t3 be slower than t2 for land and also for air tier so that int faster than asf ( indeed int is lighter than asf )


I like you idea
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Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

Postby Ze_PilOt » 22 Feb 2013, 17:47

Battleships should be faster than frigates ?
Nossa wrote:I've never played GPG or even heard of FA until FAF started blowing up.
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Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

Postby ColonelSheppard » 22 Feb 2013, 18:20

yep... a high tec airplane should indeed be slower than a low tec one, makes perfectly sence
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Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

Postby Kof » 10 Mar 2013, 10:34

Sheppard, you're a great man for the sarcastic (and often rude) comments. In relation to your above post:

MIG 21 - went into production in the mid 50s.
Max speed: 2,228 km/h

Eurofighter - went into production in 2003
Max speed: 2,124 km

I could have made the comparison even more extreme by using the MIG 25.
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Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

Postby Arx » 11 Mar 2013, 00:23

I agree that T2 units need buffs, maybe on speed and dps not HPs, currently T2 is not like a tech level, but a later phase of T1.
+0.5 speed and +5~10% dps should be enough.

Currently the cost effective of tanks are about:
T1 1.4
T2 1.6
T3 2.0
(I did some math on it and could be wrong)
And we get some units variety from tech level.
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Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

Postby Moltar » 11 Mar 2013, 02:12

Kof wrote:Sheppard, you're a great man for the sarcastic (and often rude) comments. In relation to your above post:

MIG 21 - went into production in the mid 50s.
Max speed: 2,228 km/h

Eurofighter - went into production in 2003
Max speed: 2,124 km

I could have made the comparison even more extreme by using the MIG 25.


You can't use such a small sample size. I could also say that the MIG 21 has a max speed of 2228 km/h, however the SU-35, F-15, F-22 and, SU-27 all have speeds in excess or approaching 3000 km/h, Mach 2.25+. If people are going to make claims you need to include a large enough sample size to handle everything. The above is just an example.
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Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

Postby Sunny » 11 Mar 2013, 02:43

Arx wrote:I agree that T2 units need buffs, maybe on speed and dps not HPs, currently T2 is not like a tech level, but a later phase of T1.
+0.5 speed and +5~10% dps should be enough.

Currently the cost effective of tanks are about:
T1 1.4
T2 1.6
T3 2.0
(I did some math on it and could be wrong)
And we get some units variety from tech level.

Wow! I agree. T2 tanks are still a even bit better because of micro their HP allows to perform. And T3s are even much much better.
I also did some math, based on focus-firing from both sides worst-case scenario.
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=3087
You can find some sandbox tests there too, including different t2 tanks vs Cyb t1 mixes.
Also note, that T1 is going to win unmicroed.

I would like to see T2 tanks to be slower than T1 but more tanky, like dedicated "land superiority" or "taking certain ground" fighters vs T1 land tanks. Good example is Obsidian, but I would prefer it being even worse in terms of turning around and acceleration and having even more shield/hp, probably less dps. Speed itself might be left comparable to T1. The idea is to make attack with such units more of a commitment. Result: a feeling real heavy tanks, hard-microed, especially vulnerable for air, but soaking alot of damage and "slowly coming to stay for long".
This will keep T1 usable on late stages in game for harassment, but T3 will still be better for some tasks because of longer range (or speed). I would like all heavy T3s to have huge overkill, like Percies, so that they could murder T2 and T4, but T1 could still beat them mass for mass.

This will bring new fun to game. Imagine countering Persival spam with Mech Marine/Lobo armies, or 10-15 T2 tanks rolling over a base with PDs straight or going straight for comm ignoring sea or enemy's T1 spam.

I'm very busy doing my main job, probably if I'll get some time, I'll write a proof-of concept mod.
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Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

Postby Arx » 11 Mar 2013, 07:32

Sunny wrote:
Arx wrote:I agree that T2 units need buffs, maybe on speed and dps not HPs, currently T2 is not like a tech level, but a later phase of T1.
+0.5 speed and +5~10% dps should be enough.

Currently the cost effective of tanks are about:
T1 1.4
T2 1.6
T3 2.0
(I did some math on it and could be wrong)
And we get some units variety from tech level.

Wow! I agree. T2 tanks are still a even bit better because of micro their HP allows to perform. And T3s are even much much better.
I also did some math, based on focus-firing from both sides worst-case scenario.
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=3087
You can find some sandbox tests there too, including different t2 tanks vs Cyb t1 mixes.
Also note, that T1 is going to win unmicroed.

I would like to see T2 tanks to be slower than T1 but more tanky, like dedicated "land superiority" or "taking certain ground" fighters vs T1 land tanks. Good example is Obsidian, but I would prefer it being even worse in terms of turning around and acceleration and having even more shield/hp, probably less dps. Speed itself might be left comparable to T1. The idea is to make attack with such units more of a commitment. Result: a feeling real heavy tanks, hard-microed, especially vulnerable for air, but soaking alot of damage and "slowly coming to stay for long".
This will keep T1 usable on late stages in game for harassment, but T3 will still be better for some tasks because of longer range (or speed). I would like all heavy T3s to have huge overkill, like Percies, so that they could murder T2 and T4, but T1 could still beat them mass for mass.

This will bring new fun to game. Imagine countering Persival spam with Mech Marine/Lobo armies, or 10-15 T2 tanks rolling over a base with PDs straight or going straight for comm ignoring sea or enemy's T1 spam.

I'm very busy doing my main job, probably if I'll get some time, I'll write a proof-of concept mod.

You may try divide mass value twice in "HDM".
What I used is:
{(dps*health) / [(mass+energy/200)^2]}^0.5 / [0.95^(range-24)]
200 is 1mass/1energy value rate, calculated from another formula.
24 is average attack range(I think)
0.95 is [1-2*(1/speed)/(health/dps)] for most tanks.
Quite guessing, and should be wrong.

T2 tanks can't replace T1 tanks, because T1 tanks have better dps/mass and speed.
If you got T3 tanks, there is no reason to build T2 ones, but there are still reasons to continue building T1.
If T2 tanks get speed buff, they will have a different role from T3.
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Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

Postby pip » 11 Mar 2013, 08:19

Maybe you guys can test the new speeds in the balance test mod and check if T2 units are not better with the buffs they recieved?

Speed is more important than people think (and Sunny's replay with Crazed on his suggestion thread shows this very well), because micro is often the key to victory during an encounter. Speed allows more efficient micro (it's easier to catch up with t1 arties for instance, or to retreat when facing an ACU with Overcharge).

Maybe t2 needs something more, but they already "feel" better to use. Still heavier than t1 units, but not as slow as would be a t3 unit. They are more useful for map control.

For me, Othuum having 2.5 speed and Rhino having 2.7 speed is ridiculous, because one has more than 6000 HP of armor and the other 1150HP. 0.2 speed difference is not enough. Now, the difference is 0.7 speed, it makes more sense.
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Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

Postby Kof » 11 Mar 2013, 10:15

Moltar wrote:You can't use such a small sample size. I could also say that the MIG 21 has a max speed of 2228 km/h, however the SU-35, F-15, F-22 and, SU-27 all have speeds in excess or approaching 3000 km/h, Mach 2.25+. If people are going to make claims you need to include a large enough sample size to handle everything. The above is just an example.
@Moltar

I was just making the point that a technically far superior aircraft isn't necessarily faster than a lower tech one. I was responding to Sheppard's comment (see below):

ColonelSheppard wrote:yep... a high tec airplane should indeed be slower than a low tec one, makes perfectly sence


I was not trying to say that a technically advanced aircraft can't be fast. That would be just like the statement that Sheppard made originally (though inverted).

Other examples of plane that are slower (relative to the max speed of the Mig-21), but that are far more technically advanced would be the F-35 or F-18 super.
I did mention the Mig-25 which is a 60s vintage plane, which is even faster than the mig-21.

I think my point stands, a low tech plane can be faster than a high tech one. Early jet fighters like the MIG21 have a broadly comparable max speed to current day jet fighters - the tech difference becomes most apparent in other areas IMO (avionics, sensors, agility, possibly stealthy characteristics etc).
Last edited by Kof on 11 Mar 2013, 10:44, edited 1 time in total.
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