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Scathis.

PostPosted: 15 Feb 2013, 18:17
by Ze_PilOt
No idea what this is about, noms have to complete.

Re: Scathis.

PostPosted: 15 Feb 2013, 20:24
by CocoaMoko
Scathis is an interesting one. With the shield modifications it because has become a game ender again, absolutely unstoppable...if it's in range. Even before the shield mofications, it was very destructive for it's price.

Scathis becomes very useless on certain maps because it's range is really tiny now. So on some maps, scathis ends the game, on others, it's a waste of 3 ML.

I cost > 20000 mass less than normal t3 arty but is far more destructive to arty within range.

I would nerf the damage a bit in any event. But I'd also say make it a lot faster moving, and maybe amphibious. Maybe even nerf the range a little if you do that. It could then assume the role of a siege unit. Something you need to take out onto the battlefield to use, and therefore need to keep protected, instead of just sitting in your base obliterating everything in range.

Re: Scathis

PostPosted: 15 Feb 2013, 23:20
by noms
edited 22/2

Scathis is currently OP for team games on small maps. Here is a replay of good isis players: all over 1800+ (POSTAL, DoshNEGGER, BC_Cpt_Chlorgas, and BC_Blackheart) where the BC team easy wins with a scathis:

The team that built the scathis had a heavily defended forward area with lots of T3 PD. DoshNEGGERs fatboys were not effective and POSTAL's ythothas could not be used until the T3 PD was destroyed. Only long ranged attacks (15+ t2 arty and mobile t3 arty) protected by shields could have taken out BC team's front defensive area and allowed them to push through with T3/T4.

Scathis is only 63,000 mass and can be built within minutes with good combined ecos. Despite its short range it is very effective on smaller 10x10 maps such as isis but only if you heavily defend it. The problem is that it is far too cheap and does "game-ender" style damage in a short amount of time.

Sure the LHS team could have built many strat bombers and taken it out, but the right team could easily rebuild it in 2-3 minutes. Teleported scus would not have been successful either as they would get murdered by the T3 pd.

Replay:
1800+ isis scathis.fafreplay
(327.12 KiB) Downloaded 208 times


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Scathis:

cost: 63k mass, 780k energy, 1580 dps, range 330

Compared to 3 x T3 arty:

cost 261-274k mass, 2616-2745k energy, ~1380-1800 dps, range 700-900 [cybran-aeon]

On a small map like isis this weapon is effectively an inexpensive "game ender". It can sit at the outer edge of one's base heavily defended with overlapping t2 and t3 shields, T4 bots, T3 PD etc. On these maps it is more effective than 3 x T3 arty and is 75% cheaper mass wise. It does 3000 damage every 1.9 seconds (1580 splash dps) and can destroy a heavily shielded base very quickly. Facing this much dps it is impossible to defend with any number of t3 shields. In previous versions of FA this was Cybran's game ender and it used to cost 300k mass, but in FAF it was given a massive cost reduction (perhaps too massive?) to encourage use.

Since it is so cheap it can be built within 2-3 minutes with late game combined eco.


Screenshot showing Scathis range on 10x10 map Fields of Isis:

http://www.imagebam.com/image/56a28d223415299

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Balance Change:

Current scathis: mass 63k, energy 780k, dps 1580, range 330, max speed 1

Proposed scathis: mass 126k, energy 1512k, dps 1580, range 330, max speed 1


Proposed mavor (added 22/2): mass 300k, energy 6000k, dps 2125 (17k damage per shot), range 4000


Compared to:

Disruptor: mass 87k, energy 870k, dps 460, range 700
Salvation: mass 270k, energy 5400k, dps 2555, range 1800
Mavor: mass 300k, energy 6000k, dps 1500, range 4000

Re: Scathis.

PostPosted: 16 Feb 2013, 00:13
by Ze_PilOt
- Balance changes should not be done based on a single map.
- Your replay prove that teamwork works better than throwing mass at your enemy, nothing more. It was the nail in the coffin, but it did not destroyed a single one of your experimental.

Re: Scathis.

PostPosted: 16 Feb 2013, 00:16
by ColonelSheppard
i think Scatis outclasses other gameenders atm, it should be tweaked

Re: Scathis.

PostPosted: 16 Feb 2013, 00:17
by Ze_PilOt
Other game enders are never really useful in a real game. So we should nerf the only "game ender" that find an utility in the game ?

I think we saw during 6 years how useful was the previous scathis was with similar stats to the ones proposed.

Re: Scathis.

PostPosted: 16 Feb 2013, 00:19
by ColonelSheppard
Ze_PilOt wrote:Other game enders are never really useful in a real game. So we should nerf the only "game ender" that find an utility in the game ?

if you want to buff the other game enders instead in with you

gamenders tweak > scatis nerf > do nothing

Re: Scathis.

PostPosted: 16 Feb 2013, 00:28
by Ze_PilOt
"Mavor being useful on 81x81, XXX on 40x40",.... Are bad. You want some stats about game played on maps bigger than 20x20 ? It's so anectodical that they should not even be considered to balance anything.

Re: Scathis.

PostPosted: 16 Feb 2013, 00:33
by Zock
I also think the scathis is a little too strong now. Nerf the dmg/cost/buildtime/range, but decrease the time it needs to deploy/undepoly could be a good idea.

I don't have the time to do further testing though.

Re: Scathis.

PostPosted: 16 Feb 2013, 00:48
by Voodoo
I agree with Zock. The scathis is a little bit too cheap. On a map with only one pass e.g. (warter of isis) it's the best you can do now.

Here is a cast how powerful a scathis is and how fast you can build one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv1zmVvZc8w