Some ideas on changing the game(buffs,nerfs,and alterations)

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Some ideas on changing the game(buffs,nerfs,and alterations)

Postby yeager » 13 Apr 2015, 15:57

Greetings boys, girls, and supcom enthusiasts alike, I am about give a ful run down of everything I feel needs to be buffed, nerfed, or altered. Note that I am a seraphim player, but most of my suggestions are based off the unit database statistics, I am trying not to bias also, very few things on here are truly broken, and are more like ideas, your gonna see a lot about sera on here, and that is because they have the least units, so i am giving suggestions to recreat units to fit roles better( see amphibious units) I am not trying to buff the hell out of sera, u will see that with many of my buffs come draw backs. For example the sniper bot. (Note: I am going to continue to update this to explain things better, so if I don't reply to your comment it's cause I probably rewrote what was here instead)
First the most broken thing in the game, the sACUs,
Uef: totally OP, like, it's not even funny
Sera: slightly OP, but this countered by a very small selection of abilities.
Aeon: needs a small buff, preferably in life
Cybran: pretty much ok
Now for every thing else
T1
Buff:
Cybran: arty should be slightly cheaper
Mole and Selene ( note: this is just to make the game more interesting, these units don't actually need buffs) it would be cool if the Selene and mole could stealth other units, but only one, and the stealth would cost a certain percentage of that units e, for example, it should cost 15 e to stealth a Thaam and 15000e a second to stealth a chicken, also, for the Selene this only works when the unit of choice is standing still, and for mole only the unit is stealthed, the mole is still vulnerable to attack once again, just an idea to make the game wackier not an actual buff suggestion in fact I really don't think this should find its way into the game
T2
Aeon:
Buff: evensong's missile should travel faster, so it's better for sniping (reason is even song sucks at base destroying, but if u increase missile speed it will at least be better for sniping unsuspecting units)
Nerf: obsidian and needs a cost increase, but only slightly (note: some argue that it should be nerfed at all cause then it would more expensive than the sera's ishla, and to this I say A. I don't want it to go back to its original cost, that would be too much, but none the less it should be more expensive B. Obsidian is faster (although only barely) has more health, better regen, better veterancy, and more damage while the sera bot has more rang and a better fire rate. So over all obsidian should be slightly more C. The shield on the obsidian ( if I am not mastaken cost 10e if this is right than one t2 power plant should more than do the trick, also if a tank dies you don't have to make more e power for the next one u build. also I really just put this in to calm the obsidian haters, personally I think the -10e makes up for it, but that's just personal opinion
Sparky: give radar and make faster (this is again something that doesn't really need to happen but would be interesting)
Hover tanks: they should have more rang and speed than the pillar, but less health, so that they lose all day long in 1v1s but with micro can act kinda like the mongoose ( note: if decreasing the health makes them to vulnerable then they can tie the pillar but be more expensive, demanding micro to get their money's worth) also thy should be slower on water and slightly more expensive in the first place, but pls don't over nerd it like you did with the sera t3sub
Wagner: faster speed when underwater
Uef: faster speed when on land. (Makes it a better rading unit and a better freind to the mongoose)
T3
Note: some of the Changes I am about to suggest are for gameplay deepening, not cause those units are underpowered
Oothum and brick: either make the torpedo systems more effective or make the anti torpedo system on the brick more effective and turn the oothums torpedo launcher into a torpedo defense armament( this is in here cause adding in oothums and bricks with torpedo defense would be interesting to see, as it would push some players to add them into their navy instead only building them when they have naval superiority)
Perceval: make faster when in the water

T3 (buffs not for increasing gameplay but because the units need them)
Sera's oothum: this unit doesn't need a buff on paper, but when you use the unit you see it is the worst t3 cause it is insanely terrain dependent switch the damage between the higher cannon and the lowers cannons, look at brinkpinsanity's seraphim guide an u will see what I meen
Sniper bots: I get that people are afraid to make it Op but they need a range increase, (at the expense of their damage) also remember they are VERY terain dependent, so increasing the rang will only have a giant affect when they are used on super flat maps or against naval unit, decrease damage if you increase rang. ( if a GC were to come at a sniper bot it would do the same amount of damage as it's non buffed counter part by the time the GC got to it, but start firing earlier)
NAVAL:
T1 sera has worst navy, aeon also has a crap t1 navy but this is counter by the exodus, witch is obviously the best destroyer
T2: sera had worst navy. update: some argue that uef have worst t2 naval , and although their navy does suck on some cases there are extra units (like the shield boat and cooper) to make up for this.but if the destroyer or cruiser suck at something (for example: fighting auroras) then that means the entire t2 navy suffers, they can't just trow in a shield boat or anything like that. Although it is true sera have a great amphib force, which covers issues like this well if u can afford swiching your naval production into land production.
T3 sera has bad battleship because it is lower than its counter parts, making it worse against land(could be fixed by making the shells lob more) and the t3 sub is just as cost effective as it's cybran t2 counter part, which is stupid as hell, give the sub back it's life and some of its rang, (or speed) you shouldn't have to wait for t3 to get a unit that isn't any better than what other factions get at t2
Now that I have expressed my hatred for the sera navy nerfs I can continue
T1:
Buff: increase speed of aeon frigate(this is risky an u would have to lower the speed to keep it from Being op) and turn the anti torpedo on the sera sub into a torpedo defense flair and increase the firing speed, it should still be worst sub at t1, but only by a small margin and should have purpose onto later tears, similar to the cybran t1 arty
t2: sera and uef have disadvantage, but this is countered by powerful t3 navy, in other words, buff the sub at t3 and it's ok if sera sucks a little at t2 (I understand the destroyer is good with micro, but A. That's time spent when your enemy is focusing on upgrades and B. Things like t2 sub spam can't be microed against very well)
T3: I think its obvious what I want buffed
AIR:
T1: see if the cybran gunship could be made slightly cheaper, I am not sure if this would be a good buff, but something to keep in mind for when u guys are bored, (if that ever happens) (new note: this is totally a suggestion, it's not like I am declaring this game breaking, just something to take a look at if you have nothing else to do)
T2: sera air sucks but that is fine, it needs to suck
t3: cybran so could use an ever so slight health buff (new note: although stealth makes up for this when omni comes in it becomes worthless so the should be able to fair slightly better without it, if your worried you can always make stealth cost more to even it out, although I don't suggest that)
That is all of my suggestions on mobile unit buffs, please give them a chance, if one doesn't work try something else, and for all the non moders plz tell me what u think :D
Last edited by yeager on 15 Apr 2015, 00:13, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: What I think needs buffed and nerfed

Postby E8400-CV » 13 Apr 2015, 16:28

I agree that sera navy got nerfed a bit too hard.
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Re: What I think needs buffed and nerfed

Postby Apofenas » 13 Apr 2015, 17:40

I agree on some and disagree on many points here. But it doesn't matter. Balance changes in the main game mode are going to be decided by balance counsilor. You should feel free to make a mod for your idea yourself, but i believe it's not going to get any further than IceDreamer's balance research or Ithilis' hover rework.
Spoiler: show
At least those had exact proposed numbers eventually


Things i disagree with:
T1
Buff:
Cybran: arty should be slightly cheaper
Sera: make the tank equal in cost to that of uef but also give it a rang advantage so in a 1v1 they tie
T2
Aeon:
Buff: evensong's middle should travel faster, so it's better for sniping
Nerf: obsidian needs a cost increase, but only slightly
Why? These things are fine atm. I don't see any point for these changes.
Hover tanks: they should have more rang and speed than the pillar, but less health, so that they lose all day long in 1v1s but with micro can act kinda like the mongoose ( note: if decreasing the health makes them to vulnerable then they can tie the pillar but be more expensive, demanding micro to get their money's worth)
Wagner: faster speed when underwater
Uef: faster speed when on land. (Makes it a better rading unit and a better freind to the mongoose)
Hover needs to be nerfed on water and buffed on land, but not so much. It should recieve speed nerf on water(counts for wagner too). Wagner should get torps to be able to fight t1 subs same efficient as hover fights frigates; Blaze should get same range as aurora (mb in trade of HP); yenzine - more speed; Riptide is very difficult unit to change and i have no idea about it; though i liked how Ithilis done it in his mod. I think he is soon to appear in this topic with wall of suggestions, arguments and numbers.
Sniper bots: I get that people are afraid to make it Op but they need a range increase, a big one, also remember they are VERY terain dependent, so increasing the rang will only have a giant affect when they are used on super flat maps or against naval unit, decrease damage if you increase rang past that of arty for balance
Again, why? I saw these units being used in team games and they showed themselves so much better than arty; i saw these units being used in 1v1s and yet, they showed themselves very well. I see no point in making them 90 range. This is just too much.
T1 sera has worst navy
T2: sera had worst navy
buff the sub at t3 and it's ok if sera sucks a little at t2
Worst t1 navy is aeon,main reason for it is frigate, as it's main buildable unit and it has worst combat stats and no aa. Worst t2 navy is obviously uef, as its destroyer is just awfull. On the other hand, sera t2 is very strong; destroyer - it's weak on paper, but it's different in real game; It was proven being too strong by Zock(?) in the past so it got to wat it is atm.
Sera t3 sub is nerfed too much in my opinion, but even with that being microed, this unit can bring very good outcome for you.
T1: see if the cybran gunship could be made slightly cheaper, I am not sure if this would be a good buff, but something to keep in mind for when u guys are bored, (if that ever happens)
t3: cybran so could use an ever so slight health buff
Any reasoning here? Mass? Jester already has close dps/mass to t2 gunships, so mass is fine; Power? It's fine too - it makes it hard enough to rush in the beginning, so we don't see cancer jester openning every game.
HP buff cybran t3 air is questionable too. Speaking from my experience, stealth adds cybran air has best survivability in FFAs and allows to hide disadvantage in air, so enemy doesn't engage before he makes sure about that.
BalanceVictim wrote:I tried it out, and yes, the anti-torpedo is a useful tool now. Sadly, the rest of the unit is still extremely weak compared to any other frig
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Re: What I think needs buffed and nerfed

Postby yeager » 13 Apr 2015, 19:04

Most of these are ideas, the only thing I think really need help are the sACUs and sera navy, their t3 sub is as cost effective as the cybran t2, like I said, that's not right, everything else is just ideas to mess around with
P.s. Sera tank loses all day long against uef, and although this is countered by a slightly cheeper cost, it's bad for gameplay
Also remember sera had a huge lack of t2 units, so making the yen act kinda like a mix between the mongoose and pillar will help, other wise sera completely lacks an early t2 unit that is of any use
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Re: What I think needs buffed and nerfed

Postby yeager » 13 Apr 2015, 19:14

Also uef has shield boat and cooper, which are made to complement the uef destroyer
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Re: What I think needs buffed and nerfed

Postby keyser » 13 Apr 2015, 19:31

your statement about sACU is right. We need to fix bug about them in the first place, and then get an balance team up to work on it.

about sera :

sera navy T2 is arguably the best (depends of situation though, it's not so good vs subs, and destro can't kill base after you win naval) (+ it's the best destro against hover)
sera T2 land is actually the stronger. Their T2 hover is the most effective of the hover, and the combo arty + T2 hover can be deadly.
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Re: What I think needs buffed and nerfed

Postby yeager » 13 Apr 2015, 19:39

keyser wrote:your statement about sACU is right. We need to fix bug about them in the first place, and then get an balance team up to work on it.

about sera :

sera navy T2 is arguably the best (depends of situation though, it's not so good vs subs, and destro can't kill base after you win naval) (+ it's the best destro against hover)
sera T2 land is actually the stronger. Their T2 hover is the most effective of the hover, and the combo arty + T2 hover can be deadly.

Uef is better against hover because of the insane deck gun damage and although sera destroyer is sometimes good it always looses against aeon (but that's fair cause aeon t1 naval sucks) and is pretty muck even with the cybran one, at least, after you take care of the rang advantage by submersing. Also I am not trying to say sera hover needs a buff, but a change to increase "play value" if you will. it doesn't, in any way need a buff. But it could be more interesting
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Re: What I think needs buffed and nerfed

Postby IceDreamer » 13 Apr 2015, 21:47

No balance decisions regarding navy and hover should be made yet, not before the hitbox fixes finally go ingame and we get to see what happens when the units in this game can actually hit what they're aiming at :roll:
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Re: What I think needs buffed and nerfed

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 14 Apr 2015, 00:59

hmm I read whole topic, and am in compulsion write long post about everything you write. But dont know if someone would read it, and if that would make some sense waste one hour for write it...
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on hover check my Hover_Rework mod you would found it on mod vault, and probably like it. Do it what you want make with hover (and range bots)
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Re: What I think needs buffed and nerfed

Postby yeager » 14 Apr 2015, 01:35

Ill have to check it out
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