hover staf buff

[Ithilis_Quo]

hover staf (except wagner) is not effective usable on land battle, imho can be hover as other land units, with posibility to cross water, instead of be ussles on land and superior against navy.
What deny naval superiority is nerf speed on water, then can be deny 20mass cost (more energy cost for build is imho better pay for hover ability). here is comparation for 1 mass cost.

UNIT------hp/1mas--dmg/1mass--dps ratio.X.range-- real dps.X.hp ratio--differences
blaze.......4.7---------0.22 (23r)------0.22------------------1.034---------------hover/v.fast----cost 25%more e
yenzee.....5.9---------0.22 (18r)------0.17------------------1.003---------------hover/v.fast----cost 25%more e
wagner.....4.8---------0.33 (23r)------0.33------------------1.584---------------ambhious/fast--cost 25%more e
riptide......4.7---------0.25 (18r)-----0.19-------------------0.893---------------hover/fast------cost 10%more e
pilar........7.5---------0.27 (23r)------0.27-------------------2.025---------------
rhino.......6------------0.28 (23r)------0.28------------------1.932---------------
iswahor....6.9---------0.33 (26r)------0.37-------------------2.553---------------
obsidian---6.8---------0.33 (20r)------0.28-------------------1.904---------------shiel (e upkeep calculate on mas cost)

dps ratio/range = dps/+mass x % or range wide from 23(100%).
blaze 0.22x1 =
yenzee 0.22x(18:23=0,78)=
_________________________________

In land figh speed and hover ability doesnt mather, it is advantage and is good to pay for it. but imho this price would be more e for build (25%->80%=>60/s->80e/s) not, mass, and not significant worse stats.

hover final stats imho would be on number as have wagner abotu 1.5. (with lower speed over water about speed 3, for all hover, and maybe 4 for wagner) wagner is pretty fine units that is only from fast category usable on land. All other are to op on water and too big crap on land, especialy riptide who is extrem.

with stats about 1.5 would hover cost 80%more energy as non hover units (its a lot)
riptide have about 2400hp 90dps 18 range and 3speed on water (also would have bigger build time, same as iswahor, and more e cost, because already have less as others)
blaze have 1350hp same other staff, and on water have 3 speed instead of 4.3, and cost 80%more e as non hover
yenzee have 1500hp and 20 range
wagner have more torpedo dmg(as apofenes suggest in another threat), and same (or more) speed underwater as on land.
_______________

What this is good for? For add 3 units back on game, where can be ussable on land fight. Big energy cost make them tactical choice if build faster hover with 1.5 unit ratio or cheaper and more effective non hover with 2 units ratio.
Iswahor and obsidian have better units ratio because are more 2,5T units as T2 (dont have 2,75T and 3,5T units on T3 phase)
________________________
CHANELOG : Hover_revork v4


blaze
reasource
220m,1320e,880bt ->198m, 1980e,880bt (-9m/s -90e/s 22s)
defense
1050hp->1200hp
speed 4,3->4
speed on water 4,3->3
----------------------
Yenzee
reasource
220m,1320e,880bt ->198m, 1980e,880bt (-9m/s -90e/s 22s)
defense
1300hp->1400hp
speed 4,3->4
speed on water 4,3->3
--------------------------
Wagner
reasource
297m, 1980e, 1320bt -> 297m, 2475e, 1320bt (-9m/ -75e/s 33s)
weapon
direct fire 22->23 (range)
torpedo
32->10 (range)
3dps (2 projectil, for 6dmg, every 4s) -> 10dps (1projectil ,for 150dmg, every 15s)
speed under water 3,7->4
--------------------
Riptide
reasource
363m,1980e,1320bt -> 360m,3600e,1600bt (-9m/s -90e/s 40s)
defense 1700hp -> 2000hp
weapon
90dps->120dps (2x18dmg every 0,3s)
speed 3,7->3,4
speed on water 3,7->3
--------------------
Obsidian
reasource
390m,1800e,1600bt -> 363m (333+30for e),1850e,1480bt (-9m/s -50e/s 37s)
------------------------------
hoplite
reasource
200m, 1000e, 1000bt -> 200m, 1125e, 1000bt (-8m/s -45e/s 25s)
weapon
aoe 2->2.2
speed 3,6->3,3
----------------------------
mongoose
reasource
200m, 1000e, 1000bt -> 200m, 1125e, 1000bt (-8m/s -45e/s 25s)
weapon
gattling muzzle velocity 25->35
gattling aoe 0->0,5
granade firing randomnes 2.5->1.75
speed 3.6->3.3

[Apofenas]

Riptide is only unit from this category that deserves a buff. Other hover units are way too fast to be strong units. The reason for this is their role of countering range bots. UEF have their own, so riptide is useless for this role. It's also too expensive and slow for raiding unit. That makes it worst tank in game probably.

I also don't think that aeon and seraphim hover tanks are bad atm. Blaze+alysium mix compensates hp/mass disadvantane for blazes and combined with better range you can get close combat outcome, as you would get from cybran/uef t2 units(but this unit mix is faster).
Yenzine itself is strong unit. Yes it's less efficient than pillar, but it's too fast and amphibious. Maximal buff that i would give this unit is dps tweak: from 200 damageevery 4 seconds into 150 damage every 3 seconds -> less overkill against t1 tanks.

Another thing is that you just can't make aeon and seraphim t2 hover tank competitive with standard t2 tanks from UEF and cybran when they already have t2 tank/bot that already are way stronger.

[Col_Walter_Kurtz]

Well, if these units are capable of moving over water it's only fair that they perform less than their land-only counterparts right?

I think it's debatable if hover is superior against navy. Do you mean that you can hold off or even push back with massive hover spam? This is true, and imo is ok in itself, but sometimes I feel that its's a little too cheap to have 20-30 factories spamming hover.

[Apofenas]

I think it's debatable if hover is superior against navy. Do you mean that you can hold off or even push back with massive hover spam? This is true, and imo is ok in itself, but sometimes I feel that its's a little too cheap to have 20-30 factories spamming hover.

Frigates are more efficient in direct naval fight, but they can't folow hover tanks on land to defend mexes -> you have less mass. It's also harder to focus enough frigates in one place to fight hover tanks, so land spam wins - you can clearly see it in channel type of maps like wilderness.

[Ceneraii]

Well, if these units are capable of moving over water it's only fair that they perform less than their land-only counterparts right?

I think it's debatable if hover is superior against navy. Do you mean that you can hold off or even push back with massive hover spam? This is true, and imo is ok in itself, but sometimes I feel that its's a little too cheap to have 20-30 factories spamming hover.

On navy maps without huge bodies of water frigates can't kite long enough to pull ahead against hover, they either get hemmed in and die or the hover just goes straight past them unto land. It's not really debatable, been proven a dozen times. This problem is further aggravated because frigates have problems targeting them.

[Ithilis_Quo]

Other hover units are way too fast to be strong units. The reason for this is their role of countering range bots.

This is probably true. But speed dont have any impact on fight (if dont have superior range), speed would not make units better on fight, only better for avoiding fight. That is something that dont help a lot.

Imho we can discuse if would be better slow them down for speed 4,3->4. And also slow range bot from 3,6->3,3, range bot would still have range and speed superiority as all other non hover stuff. And hover stuff would be same effective counter of range bot.

But i cant agree with hover dont need buff. On land are ussles.

Yenzine itself is strong unit

Where was last time that you see sera player build yenzee on land map? I cant remember where was last time when i see more yenzee as iswahor. When one units is so hard dominant how it can be strong units? (same with blaze, but little less, because obsidian is much worse as iswahor)

Yes it's less efficient than pillar, but it's too fast and amphibious. Maximal buff that i would give this unit is dps tweak: from 200 damageevery 4 seconds into 1500 damage every 3 seconds -> less overkill against t1 tanks.

you are able agree with low rof on yenze, but most of ppl not on 2x more expensive obsidian, that have even more overkill against T1

fully agree that riptide is pointless. but it is not so big differences from other hover (0,9 and 1 and 15%less energy cost). And this is not only buf, idea is buff them, but i realy dont want to make something op, or unbalanced. 80% more energy cost as non hover units is not nothing. Noone are looks on air as on cheap units, because bomber cost only 80 mass. you need build energy for build air. And alsou would need energy for build hover tanks. Transform +20 mass for hoover ability, to energy is imho better, because open more tactical decision how to play.


when you build T2 units it consume 9m and 45e/s, hover units cost 9m (riptide 11) and -60e/s. -> that mean you need at first invest 56mass more for 3/4 T1 pgen what is differences. When it would be 80, then you need invest 131 mass for 1,75 t1 pgen more as when you build non hover staff. And for this investition you have faster, hover and 25%less effective units as when you build non hover. On my it looks fair, and more interesting, as when everyone build only non hover units, because hover is on land ussles.

[Apofenas]

Spoiler: show

This is probably true. But speed dont have any impact on fight (if dont have superior range), speed would not make units better on fight, only better for avoiding fight. That is something that dont help a lot.

Imho we can discuse if would be better slow them down for speed 4,3->4. And also slow range bot from 3,6->3,3, range bot would still have range and speed superiority as all other non hover stuff. And hover stuff would be same effective counter of range bot.

But i cant agree with hover dont need buff. On land are ussles.
Where was last time that you see sera player build yenzee on land map? I cant remember where was last time when i see more yenzee as iswahor. When one units is so hard dominant how it can be strong units? (same with blaze, but little less, because obsidian is much worse as iswahor)
fully agree that riptide is pointless. but it is not so big differences from other hover (0,9 and 1 and 15%less energy cost). And this is not only buf, idea is buff them, but i realy dont want to make something op, or unbalanced. 80% more energy cost as non hover units is not nothing. Noone are looks on air as on cheap units, because bomber cost only 80 mass. you need build energy for build air. And alsou would need energy for build hover tanks. Transform +20 mass for hoover ability, to energy is imho better, because open more tactical decision how to play.

when you build T2 units it consume 9m and 45e/s, hover units cost 9m (riptide 11) and -60e/s. -> that mean you need at first invest 56mass more for 3/4 T1 pgen what is differences. When it would be 80, then you need invest 131 mass for 1,75 t1 pgen more as when you build non hover staff. And for this investition you have faster, hover and 25%less effective units as when you build non hover. On my it looks fair, and more interesting, as when everyone build only non hover units, because hover is on land ussles.

Range bots are bad enough already in FAF balance patch. I don't see any good reason to nerf it even further. The speed matters everything - if your opponent gets reinforcements faster, raids your expansions faster and ignores water element, you will always have less tanks.

Hover units are not useless, they are underused for no reason. I saw yenzines doing both of their land roles which is enough for me to think they are good units. If you don't use unit or never saw situations where it is used, it doesn't mean it's bad.

The ilshavoh is just best t2 combat unit and obsidian is 2d strongest and since people in FAF mostly choose t2 tanks instead of microing rangebots, the ilshavoh and obsidian is obvious choice. Soon as the mongoose and hoplites appear, you will see guncom with blaze/yenzine and t1 bombers(which is another reason range bots are underused). It also happens to see hover tank raids on maps with water elements and big maps like loki or forbidden pass.

[keyser]

if you want more accurate number for your calculation : http://wiki.faforever.com/index.php?tit ... lculations

i'vent check yet whole stat. Some may be rounded (not for T2 tank at least)

[Ithilis_Quo]

Hover units are not useless, they are underused for no reason.

here is about 2000pll play daily, that is credible sample. when most of then dont use them then they must have some reason for it.
I dont build blaze because know that pillar is about 2x more effective as blaze in fight. and because im wasting mass for every blaze that i build and dont build them for some very specific situation as raiding by few enemy T1 tanks in my back. Can cros watter, that is advantage, but not so big to have half unit ratio as non hover staff or yes? then why ppl dont build them? everyone are dump ? Or why ppl dont build chrono dumper ? or nano, or others stuff. must have some logical reason for it.

[Ithilis_Quo]

if you want more accurate number for your calculation : http://wiki.faforever.com/index.php?tit ... lculations
i'vent check yet whole stat. Some may be rounded (not for T2 tank at least)

my calculation is better because i take on dmg also range, that is imho very significant variable.
and on units with that need energy for hp, transform mass need for build energy for shield. Otherwise obsidian would cost 360m but have only 1250hp not 2750hp. Same with harb and titan. Its not same if units cost 400m or 360m, or if titan cost 480m or 480+60 =540m, energy consumption really mater (if not take it to 0).