Othuum Design

[sasin]

I read ~10 pages or so of Icedreamer's post and it looked like discussion of the othuum had ceased... my apologies if they continued. Someone mentioned that a nice idea would be to think of the role that we want the othuum to play and then build statistics to help it match that role. There are a lot of potential valid proposals, but this is just the vision that I have of a unit that would in my humble opinion increase faction diversity and fit with the design of the unit. One difficulty in this is even though the Percival already behaves a lot like I at least would imagine a tank would... it has such high HP and low manueverability for a bot, when one would imagine a bot would sacrifice toughness and/or firepower for maneuverability. The Mongoose and hoplite vs. rhino and obsidian and pillar feel very right. Then on t3 it weirdly flips. But, I'll still make a proposal not touching the percy.

Looking at the design of the unit, the Othuum is a big, fat, tank... subtitled a siege tank. Most of its dps should be focused on its main gun with the large barrel, which should be its primary weapon. Right now that gun's dps quarter of a percy shot. I'd propose that gun is buffed to 800 damage per shot with a 1.5 Aoe. Also, perhaps more controversially, I'd like to see the range increased. The idea of a siege tank sounds like something that can outrange most any unit... putting bases etc. under siege and forcing things to come to them. I'd propose the range of this gun be increased to 37. A siege tank should outrange an armored assault bot...

The other gun, the machine gun, is generally for taking out smaller units. I'd propose that this be the secondary gun, and if possible target units independently of the main gun, at least if the main gun's target is outside of range, if that's possible. The dps of each gun could be cut in half, so that they total 150 instead of being 150 a piece.

Tanks can generally take a punch better than bots, so I'd like to see the HP increased to 10,000 hp.

Finally, I would consider nerfing the turn rate. This is a big cumbersome tank, why should it be better at turning than the percival? I like the speed where it is, however, once it gets a rumbling it should go.

We've clearly designed a unit that's a lot more effective than it was previously. That said, these stats befit a siege tank. It engages at longer ranges than bots of its tech level... the shot still does less damage, but the percival is so crazy that there's nothing we can do about that. It has machine guns to deal with lower tech units that get in close to it, but these aren't its main guns, like a real tank. In terms of balance, it will almost definitely still lose to percivals or bricks in an even numbers fight, by a landslide unless the percies/bricks are grouped up. The othuum would have about the same health and same range on its main gun, but about half of its dps would be wasted unless the fight got to close quarters. This gives the othuum a different role... it's more effective against a mixed army trying to surround it. It goes along with the Seraphim ideal of less variety of units, but units that can be a jack of all trades. Cybran/UEF (in theory) choose a loyalist/titan to fight t1/t2, and a percy/brick to fight t3. But Seraphim has the Othuum that can deal with any situation, but loses in a straight up fight to the percies, which specialize in killing high tech units.

The cost could be balanced as we see the unit in action. Compared to a percie, it has 10,000 hp instead of 9,300, 350 dps instead of 400, and some of its dps has 2 higher range and some has 10 lower. It has 2.5 speed instead of 2. I'd tentatively price it at around ~1200 mass.

Thanks for reading! Let me know what you think about the othuum or if there are other design proposals out there. Normally, I'm all for steady, small nerfs with each patch, but this unit's stats are very counterintuitive. When introducing new players to the game, they see the siege tank roll in and see the percie and just assume the siege tank is the big beefy unit and the percie is a cheaper, more maneuverable one. This change would alleviate that and make the game more elegant while not messing with the general balance (percies are the best).

[pip]

So your numbers are : 10 000 HP, 2.5 speed, secondary guns with 150 DPS, main gun with 200 DPS, good frontloaded damage value (800), 1.5 AOE and 37 range, so it can outrange and outrun Percivals and Bricks : they can't hit it at all, and even if they can, it has more HP, and it can hit several of them at the same time with the comfortable AOE (same as a fobo but unescapable). And all this for 1200 mass cost.
Don't you think it's a bit crazy OP? This unit would make Percivals look weak in comparison. Range would also mean sniper bots are useless, mobile shields would also somehow be useless or make the tank even more OP.

There is no need to buff Othuum much to make it good (and even very good). Just readjusting its DPS between the two weapons would be enough. It was not done before because its range for the slow reload weapon was increased to 32. Apparently, it was not enough, so this weapon could be a bit stronger and the fast firing cannons a bit less. Maybe something like 160 DPS (600 damages every 3.75 seconds) for long range gun and 240 DPS for close range weapons (60 damages). The range advantage is very important against Harbingers so it should not become too strong.

[Neutrino]

In addition to the balance vs Percies also consider the balance vs the Fatboy. The Percies genuinely need T3.5 stats because the UEF has no tanky ground experimental. The Fatboy has only 32.5k hp and costs 28k mass whereas the Ythotha has 67k hp and costs 25k mass (plus if it gets destroyed in your opponent's base it takes out everything around it).

If the Othuum is buffed to 10k hp I'd be worried that that will put the Percy/Fatboy combo in a very bad place vs Seraphim.

[Ithilis_Quo]

already is outhnum total crapy units, because low speed and more important low range. Outhum have 75% dps on 25range = harbringer can kite him and recieve only slithly dmg, for same price. But your outhum would be insine OP, because hp and range.

Also rango on brick and perci are also crazy OP. make no sense when bots (naturaly fast and fragile units) is slow resistant and with big range and perfect precise. This range make every other units obsolate. sniper miss a lot, and need huge area. and other tanks have less everything except speed.

What can make outhum fine is move dmg distribution, and more speed 2,5->2,7
from 100 dps 32r -> 200dps 32r
from 300dps 25r -> 200dps 25r

that would mean that can nearly immediately fire against brick/perci (-1range)
and against harb would have about 4,5s when harb would recive 200dps = +-900dmg and then can harb kite on range 26-28 where would have more range as outhum second cannon.

But i personal see this stage bad, because all land units are against percival/brick obsolete, and only relevant answer is sacu/EXp

[sasin]

So your numbers are : 10 000 HP, 2.5 speed, secondary guns with 150 DPS, main gun with 200 DPS, good frontloaded damage value (800), 1.5 AOE and 37 range, so it can outrange and outrun Percivals and Bricks : they can't hit it at all, and even if they can, it has more HP, and it can hit several of them at the same time with the comfortable AOE (same as a fobo but unescapable). And all this for 1200 mass cost.
Don't you think it's a bit crazy OP? This unit would make Percivals look weak in comparison. Range would also mean sniper bots are useless, mobile shields would also somehow be useless or make the tank even more OP.


There is no need to buff Othuum much to make it good (and even very good). Just readjusting its DPS between the two weapons would be enough. It was not done before because its range for the slow reload weapon was increased to 32. Apparently, it was not enough, so this weapon could be a bit stronger and the fast firing cannons a bit less. Maybe something like 160 DPS (600 damages every 3.75 seconds) for long range gun and 240 DPS for close range weapons (60 damages). The range advantage is very important against Harbingers so it should not become too strong.

First, I suggested the cost could be used to balance it over time. My main goal was to start by coming up with an exciting design that makes sense for the unit and use the cost to balance it. If it costed 1400 mass, clearly the percie would be unequivocally better in a straight up fight. In my opinion, though, at 1200 mass the percie would also clearly be better in a straight up fight. I definitely agree with you that with more subtle buffs the unit could be just fine. As I said, in general that's probably the best way to go in balancing. In this case, though, I feel the othuum is boring and counterintuitive, so I was suggesting a total redesign of the unit to give it more unique stats, make it fun to play with, and make it fit better with what a siege tank should be. Rocket bots and gatling bots already have those things going for them, so subtle buffs make sense. The same is true for most every unit in the game. But the othuum's stats just don't fit the design of the unit, and it would be nice to see 1 fewer unit that's essentially a clone of other units.

As for the buffs... in terms of dps per mass I've given the unit a significant nerf (400/840 to 350/1200) and in terms of HP it's about the same (6700/840 to 10,000/1200). The range is significantly buffed, but only for the one cannon which is half the dps. And I'd like to see it be less maneuverable. Anyways, addressing your points...


The idea that it will outrange and outrun percies and bricks seems a bit ridiculous to me. It has 2 more range, 37 vs. 35, and .5 more speed. Compare the situation to rocket bots or mongooses vs. t2 tanks. They have about ~15 more range and 1.0 more speed than other t2 units, yet I don't see them being built and never getting hit. I realize that the reason why they don't get built is their poor dps and HP statistics, but if it were so easy to kite and never get hit then it wouldn't really matter... and this othuum has a MUCH smaller range and speed advantage then they do at their tech level. Furthermore, I was suggesting that the othuum could have difficulty turning around etc.

In addition, between ranges 25-35 the percival has twice the dps as the othuum would, and twice the alpha damage. In a 5 othuum vs. 5 percy battle on a perfectly open map, MAYBE a skilled player could win with the othuum by kiting perfectly. But in any real game situation that will be very difficult.

The 1.5 AoE may be too much... but I'd like to see that in testing. It could go down.

This doesn't just have to be about my idea. If other people have a cool potential design for the unit that would be fun to see. I'd just rather not have another clone of obsidian/rhino/pillar/ilshavoh.

[codepants]

I definitely agree with the premise. The only thing Sera has once percie spam starts is the chicken. "Seige tanks" should be made for seiging; if anything they are currently the sera version of a titan while percies are the real "Seige tanks:" Fast, maneuvrable, long range, tanky.

Not sure about the exact stats -- they shouldn't be made invincible and given the cost of percies I'm okay with them being the "best" t3 unit -- but maybe comparable range to percies and bricks, a small health buff and a small damage buff would help balance them?

I guess I'm still confused how they are balanced in the first place -- maybe if we could establish that we could better establish how to "fix" whatever is currently unfixed.

[IceDreamer]

I'm going to look into enabling this in the balancepreview mod as an entirely new unit (You'd be able to build the current, adjusted Othuum AND this one side-by-side). Should let us fiddle with the idea a bit.

[Axle]

You could fiddle with othuum's speed/range/hp so he can go toe-to-toe with other T3 units in the field. Or otherwise you could say you know what othuum isn't about manouvre, he's all about ambush - give othuum a cloak ability just like the sera scout. Then his tactic isn't to kite or overpower. His job is to hide some place and then ... SURPRISE MOTHER F***ER!

[Korbah]

Would anyone be upset if brick and Percy range got nerfed a bit? Their huge he, dps AND range make them a superior choice despite their slow speed to other t3

Even with range 30 or 32 they'd out range harbs

[Vee]

Not sure about the exact stats -- they shouldn't be made invincible and given the cost of percies I'm okay with them being the "best" t3 unit -- but maybe comparable range to percies and bricks, a small health buff and a small damage buff would help balance them?

That would make them extremely OP. Many people seem to think that you need a huge change to balance units. This is not the case. A small change already matters a lot. Othuums would already be ridiculously OP if you just increased the range to be comparable to percies and bricks, and changed nothing else. They would instantly become by far the best unit in the game.

Othuums should remain the weakest t3 unit, since seraphim has the best t2 unit. It would be nice to slightly nerf their t2 and buff their t3, because currently it's a bit much.