LABs buff

[Ithilis_Quo]

This theme probably was on table in past, and probably more time, but still try open this discusion again:
guys dont would we try to consider about founding way how to change stats for not make labs after 2minute totaly ussles?

Isnt it waste have units that can be effective used only for first raiding and potential ghetto ?

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

I was check the number, and are pretty sad.

70(x1,4):24 = 4
280:21(x1,4)=9,5s (but less range)
t1 tank kill lab for 3sec and labs kill t1 tank after 14sec
that mean labs have chance only against enginer, better say against unmicroed enginer.
And when consider that lab cost 65% of tank. then of course labs is pure waste after second minutes.
- - - - - -

Why we not buff labs to make them useble later too?
On t2/t3 we have two kind of units, one cheaper fast and weaker, and another stronger more expensive and slower.
Labs are fast cheaper but extremly weaker, tank are stronger slower and more expensive.

We can take them same role as have titan a loayalist today, what can continue after 2 minutes.


My idea:

+50hp (+20for sera)
+9dps (+7for sera)
-2range

that would mean that labs would not be kill with acu after first shot, and numbers would be much better for use labs on raiding and can stay in fight when hit some tanks.

280:30(x1,4-mass differences) = 6,6s
120(x1,4 mass differences):24= 7s

That mean tank are same effective as same mount of mass on labs on low range, have more range life much longer, also are 27,5-7,5 % slower as lab.

This will make a real role for labs as have T2 hover tanks today.

[Hawkei]

Who said LAB's were ineffective? Underused maybe, but, not ineffective.


With proper control, 1 or 2 LAB's can easily take out a tank class unit. They fair poorly against Aurora (on account of range) but they murder Mantis and Thaam. Lets also not forget that they are incredibly useful against arty spammers who have not tanks in their army. Of all the factions, they are most lethal against Seraphim. Especially when they try that hover arty spam shit. You just have to use them right.

Having a small group of LAB in your back pocket, at around the 12 minute mark is not a bad policy. They are always useful for doing runbys and keeping your opponent off balance. Especially on big, wide and open land maps.

[ZLO_RD]

Labs are underused, and not very effective at the same time

sera tank kills lab with 3 hits and it has pretty long reload time, but if you have selen, and it will shoot your lab too, then it can go down to 2 shots

Aurora kills labs with 2 shots, and often that happens so fast that you are not able to micro
also if you try to get closer to aurora, dodging becomes much much harder

mantis is little bit vunerable to labs in early game, but later on they stand strong, and you can still micro them to kite labs, since mantis is pretty fast

You can pull off some funny labs heavy tactics against sera, or heavy lab openings against cybran, but that is maximum that you can get

also labs require open space to work in big numbers

in case of buffing labs it is possible... BUT seraphim is already weakest faction against labs... so it is pretty tricky

buffing labs up to 96 health will still mean that they gonna be kill with 3 shots by sera t1 tank, but it will be 3 shots by aurora...

[Ithilis_Quo]

Who said LAB's were ineffective? Underused maybe, but, not ineffective. With proper control, 1 or 2 LAB's can easily take out a tank class unit. They fair poorly against Aurora (on account of range) but they murder Mantis and Thaam. Lets also not forget that they..........

check this replay for see how effective labs are when are replacing tanks.

labs are ussles, are toooo low for mass that cost. cost 60% of tanks and same mass have no chance against tank. ok maybe against artilery but when someone build artilery whiteout tanks... then he deserve to be punish.

in case of buffing labs it is possible... BUT seraphim is already weakest faction against labs... so it is pretty tricky

im not clear why are serafins weaker against labs? for tank posible miss/owerkill?

if serafin is too weak against buffed labs, it can be solve with slither rework selen for more as lab killer unit.

one of the point was take lab enought hp to alive one shot from acu = 100+
i was making some fast calcuation and on this number lab would be similar effective as tank - cheaper weaker dont kill tank on mass but because low range, but slithli faster.

[Hawkei]

Sorry Ithillis, I don't have the game installed at the moment so I can't check that replay. In response I would say that in small numbers or even 1v1 it is quite possible to take out a tank with a bot. Yes they die to 3 shots from a seraphim tank, but landing those shots is the difficult part. Usually when I micro my LAB the strike rate for most tanks goes down to about 10% or less. I have sometimes even been able to kill multiple tanks, and then kill the engineers they're escorting, without them landing a single shot.

For most purposes a single LAB is sufficient for killing unescorted engineers and these when sent to different expansion points can work very well on big maps. For a more reliable tank killing group I usually prefer to operate my LAB's in groups of 3... Which can reliably kill a tank without losses (that is assuming my micro is good enough not to take hits). If I do take hits I will generally loose 1 bot for 1 tank. Which is still a good trade.

[Ithilis_Quo]

then you must have micro or luck on Asian level, otherwise tank in 95% kill lab as nothing. same with 2lbas. 3 labs can kill tank, but it is price of 2tanks with can kill tank with much less micro and can be bigger threat as lab.

[Lionhardt]

I think you just need to up your click rate. Not saying this is good situation though. You know I hate micro as much as you do...

[Hawkei]

Successful LAB micro only requires the successful application of projectile physics. The simplest and easiest way to do this is run the LAB in a tight circle while keeping the tank at the edge of it's attack radius. With more heavily front loaded tanks like the Thaam all one need to is anticipate the firing time and zigzag in time with it's shots. You will carefully note that the only things which a Seraphim can build are Thaam, Selen, Arty and AA. All of which die to microed LAB's.

With Aurora the problem is range. The LAB needs to close quickly so you zigzag in on an approach vector. It is also handy if there is some terrain blocking on your approach. Once within firing range the Aurora's inaccuracy and paper armour will ensure a kill about 50% of the time. But in order for you to achieve this and not get sniped you need to see him first. The only way for this is by using an early Air Scout and this is precisely why I generally don't use LAB against Aeon.

With Mantis, they have speed and firing range working against you. But the mantis also has a slow turret turn rate which often requires the Cybran player employ counter micro to beat you. Either by turning into the shot, or by keeping their distance. If they keep their distance then you do circles at the edge of firing range (or back off and find the engie). If they turn into the shot, then you strafe inward and force the turret to counter-rotate. Strafing in behind it, and circling around it at close range.

Of all the T1 tanks, UEF strikers are the most well rounded. But they can still be beaten with a little practice. They have good turret turn rates and armour. They also fire regularly and do good damage with each shot. The problems are speed and manoeuvrability. Disadvantages which the LAB player can use to their advantage by avoiding the tank and going for softer targets.

TBH most players are unaware of LAB micro, or they are not paying attention. So once you learn the techniques, solo tanks are easy pickings.

Even with all these said, LAB's will never stand up to tanks in a large battle. So I am not the least surprised that you have poor exchange rates between them and tanks in large numbers. You ought to be using LAB's in small and fast raiding squads. Probing his weak points and keeping your opponent off balance. Forcing all his engineers to be escorted and tying up his unit count with defence. Such that your main tank force can gain the upper hand.

[ZLO_RD]

Labs replay 2727563 (Lextoc)

2 labs against mantis and scout 2738654 (Lextoc)

Desert planet II probably one of LAB paradice maps... tho t2 gunships can kill labs pretty fast 2657712 (Embers)

Varga pass = you need to send engies to ~7 different places to reclaim... labs are obviosly good choice 2628766 (Adjux)

Desert planet again, only few factories making labs, other eco goes to air... maybe to much air, then make pillars, no strikers 2611159 (Vee)

I often like labs on canis river 2516896 (1 lab was made or so) (Softly)

i have some more LAB rape replays with full lab spam but i could not find them

i also lost horribly on some maps with this labs spam, but i can't find replays =\
or was to lazy to look for my losses xD

[gnatinator]

UEF LABs are already good if you have the APM.

I would not mind seeing Aeon and Cybran LABs brought up to the stats of the UEF one.