veterancy and repair system discusion

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veterancy and repair system discusion

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 30 Dec 2014, 14:42

We have here a huge discussion about veterancy system rework, plenty of people see that veterancy as work today are not as good as can be in future. So I open new topic only about veterancy and possible way how to repair it for new shiny future.

veterancy is already not so good because... :
- it is unfair (same vet value for 1t scout and T1 subs, 352 mass value difference)
- it is illogical (is better autodestruct lower tier force as send it to damage higher tier units)
- it is complicated (its complicated to balance every unit with how many kills to get for next vet point)
- it rapes balance (units with more hp are unfairly stronger as units with less hp and more dmg because get only more hp)
- the repair function is unused and nearly useless (when was the last time that you repair units?)

Complex solutions on how to repair these bad thing and dont bring new ones:

1. veterancy points
Units already get points differences from tech level acu and XP.
T3 spy plane is same value as T3 battleship but it doesn't mean that it's the same difficulty to destroy a battleship as a spy plane.
ships take same vet points from T2 torp bomber/hover as from T2 destroyer, which is wrong.

solution -> change veterancy points from tech tier to mass value.
veterancy points get 2% of mass cost when destroying units and 1% when destroying experimental units.
Spoiler: show
Example: kill a striker 56x0.02 = 1.12 veterancy points; kill T2 heavy tank 200x0.02 = 4 points; kill T1 Land Scout 8x0.02 = 0.16 points, T2 = destroyer 2250x0.02 = 45 points; T4 GC = 27500x0.01 = 275points
Reason: only tech level of units dont show difficulty to destroy concrete unit. mass value does.


1.5 veterancy point distrubudion

Best solution would be when units not get vet point after destroy units but all participant get vet point for damaging destroyed unit.
Spoiler: show
example: 3 pillars shot on 1 obsidian first take him 40% 2th 30% 3th 30% dmg for destroying obsidian is 360x0,02 =7,2 pint so first pillar get 7,2x0,4 = 2,88point 2th and 3th get 2,16 point.

But this can make big mount of invisible calculation and can potencial slow game down. So say it as a ideal solution what is probably better dont have if make CPU problem. I would like hear someone who is advance on programing what he think on technical side of this. It is posible, or it made cpu problem who will slow down or crash game?

2. units with shield disadvantage
Units with shields are balanced with others for full surviability hp+shield. but veterancy gives them only hp from hp and dont look at the shield. Its best see on fatboy, cost the same as a GC but, vet GC gets 10,000hp: fatboy gets 1250hp and perzival 930hp, nearly as much as the fatboy.

solution-> upon hp rise after veterancy promotion, give the shield some health as well as the HP.
Spoiler: show
example: fatboy 12 500+20 000 x 0,1 = 3250hp, or obsidian 1250+1500 = 275 hp more instead of 125 hp (what is less as get +-2x cheaper pillar)


3. remove instant heal after gain veterancy promotion
this is responsible for illogical and balance breaking manners such as autodestruct army which feed the veterancy to other units, rather than use it. Or for crazy hp grow from 200 hp to 45200 on megalith. or for unstopable early T3 bots. and another thing that make game less predictable, less tactical and more frustrating.

solution-> instead of instant heal for magical number units after vet promotion, give them only new maximum hp, which can regenerate.

4. natural regeneration of units
- At first it must be said that there is big mess on the way regeneration is done, some units get different regeneration as others from the same tier/mass category for example T1 naval is same as T1 land T2 naval is same as T3 naval ect.
- secondly, it makes units after vet promotion naturaly get to regenerate to their full health faster.

solution -> change the natural regeneration of all units to this algoritm which is more clear, predictable, logical and would fill hp after vet promotion faster. In finnaly it is about 140% regeneration increase.

T1: +1/2/3/4/5 -> +2/3/4/5/6
T2: +2/4/6/8/10 -> +4/6/8/10/12
T3: +3/6/9/12/15 -> +6/9/12/15/18
T4: +10/20/30/40/50 -> +15/30/45/60/75
naval units:
T1N: +1/2/3/4/5 -> +4/6/8/10/12
T2N: +5/10/15/20/25 -> +6/9/12/15/18
T3N: +5/10/15/20/25 -> +8/12/16/20/24

Experimental units/building start with regeneration:
experimental building/air +25hp/sec
experimetnal Land/naval +15hp/sec
non-experimental building +3/6/9

5. repair
they already cost 100% mass, energy and build time as when hs same mount of hp to build, which means it is more easy to destruct and build new units with full hp as waste atm to repair it. (when was the last time that you build repair station for repair?)

solution change repair cost for 50% mass value, 100% energy and 50% buildtime.
it would mean that repairing units is more effective (2x cheaper and faster) than to reclaim and rebuild.

Spoiler: show
Need add premise what would be responsible for uncompletly build units/structure can be repair only for numbers that make builders, everithing more as make builders, is build and not faster and cheaper repair. It avoid exploit for make cheaper and faster build when enginer would repair uncomplete building instead of build


________________________________________________________________________________

I know that its a long post, but i try to be as simply and clear as was a posible. Thanks for you feedback, and much more to push this to happen.

regards Ithilis
Last edited by Ithilis_Quo on 20 Jan 2015, 23:39, edited 15 times in total.
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Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

Postby Resin_Smoker » 30 Dec 2014, 16:04

Wut ?
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Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 30 Dec 2014, 16:10

Resin_Smoker wrote:Wut ?


not sure what you mean with wut, try write it in more meanfull sentece
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Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

Postby D4E_Omit » 30 Dec 2014, 16:30

I think he wants an English -> English translation.
Sometimes, I just feel like I want to eat pancakes.
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Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 30 Dec 2014, 18:35

its realy so hard to understad? dont know how to write better. my carpathian english is in generaly suck :/
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Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

Postby Kalvirox » 30 Dec 2014, 20:33

Ithillis if you want I can copy and paste it into a word document, fix the grammer/spellings ect. and then give it to you to put back on here. I won't edit the content because I agree with it :)
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Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 30 Dec 2014, 20:58

Kalvirox thanks you, that can probably help :D i will send you this with all [ b]bolt [/b]and [ size=150]big mark[/size] in massage - ehm message :D.

you have txt file in message if its posible please stay on that doc and that i would not need make all marks again, but simply copypast.
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Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

Postby Resin_Smoker » 30 Dec 2014, 22:16

D4E_Omit wrote:I think he wants an English -> English translation.


BINGO !
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Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

Postby BRNKoINSANITY » 31 Dec 2014, 00:32

I was actually really tempted to either close or merge this topic.... there are already 2-3 old topics on this, and the concensus on every one of them is that there are a few people who think the vet system is broken, and a few people who want it to stay the same. The silent majority could not care less.

I think it should stay the same.
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Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

Postby Blodir » 31 Dec 2014, 00:37

BRNKoINSANITY wrote:I was actually really tempted to either close or merge this topic.... there are already 2-3 old topics on this, and the concensus on every one of them is that there are a few people who think the vet system is broken, and a few people who want it to stay the same. The silent majority could not care less.

I think it should stay the same.

There is a very long discussion on this with a lot of supporters on both sides in http://forums.faforever.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9044. Just because people aren't posting here doesn't mean they don't care - they just think nothing will happen either way. Of course the silent majority cares, it's a potentially massive change.
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