not disappear build order after builder die

[Ithilis_Quo]

I have one controversy idea about how to make game more focus on strategy and global thinking instead of micro and focus on details. Someone make a mod which automatic click on every reclaim in area. big thanks for it. This idea would go on same direction.

When you make your build order you spent plenty of time (or at least i spend) for clicking building and etc. More building i plane more time i waste, if the engineer with i plane it accidentally die (heart attack and etc). In finely some enginer are much more important, extremly much more, because time is most important reasource in supcom.

Idea: let posible make build order dont disappear after enginer die. let it be in terain with posibility for some other builder to continue building.

it will help for save a lot of time for make much better base, and focus more on gameplay instead of building structure again or probbably make crapy build plane after first enginer die.

[IceDreamer]

I don't think this is a good idea for gameplay. Supcom doesn't just have 2 resources, it has 5; Time, Attention, and Buildpower are resources as well, and such a major, in fact HUGE part of the game's strategic options is the ability to target enemy Engineers to effectively deny your enemy Time and Attention.

There is an idea to enable the ability to transfer a build queue from one thing to another. For example, you could queue up a bunch of stuff with your ACU, but then have to go and fight, so you then transfer that queue to an appropriate tech level Engineer which takes over leaving your ACU free. I have no idea if this is remotely possible, but this is the kind of thing I would like to see to ease build queue manipulation, not getting rid of Engineer vulnerability.

[Ithilis_Quo]

I know that it will not like all thats a reason why i called it controversy .

Still i think it go on right direction, for atomatization proces. Like already enginer automatic reclaim in area with partol, or as enginer autoamtick repair and assist. It is same think what is going for automatization proces what save wour time, attention and other main reasourse what are not showing in game lobby but exist. Already is big purpose for deny enemy enginers, but not for reason that it is enginer but for reaon he have some build plane what die with him. When supcom is trying simulate future galactic war, then in war would plane dont disappear when single builder will die. Another builder will come and do him works, or at least plane would be in drawer for the potential future use.

This is artificial barrier, as on old starcraft 1 was posible to move and make order in one time with maximum of 12 units. It was no reason for have it in game, but still it was and still it is making a huge debate about deny this barrier because this barrier is big part of starcraft and change it can make problem for plenty of player who can perfect use this barrier against opponent.

Better question would be that it is posible via engine. It is?
If yes then it can open door for fast rebuild base. When after structure destruction stay on place build order then can be very easy and fast set enginer who will rebuild it all for old glory.

It definitly change gameplay, but on more strategy and action, and less sim city. Base would be more ussefull, adjusteny would be more use, base would have better defenseive architecture and game would be more difficult.

[NewForumAccount]

Better question would be that it is posible via engine. It is?
If yes then it can open door for fast rebuild base. When after structure destruction stay on place build order then can be very easy and fast set enginer who will rebuild it all for old glory.

The ability to rebuild a base is already part of the areacommands mod, although it has quite a lot of bugs. I think it works by monitoring if buildings in the selected area get killed.

If the engine allows to "save" buildorders from engineers it would also mean that you could automize early buildorders, which would definitly be too much of a simplification of FA. But since unit-templates have already been modded into the game, this idea has probably already been looked into and found to be not possible to do.

[uberge3k]

I don't think this is a good idea for gameplay. Supcom doesn't just have 2 resources, it has 5; Time, Attention, and Buildpower are resources as well, and such a major, in fact HUGE part of the game's strategic options is the ability to target enemy Engineers to effectively deny your enemy Time and Attention.

Very well said. Anything that affects this balance must be extremely well thought out in order to ensure that the balance is modified for the better in the context of the entire game and the player experience that it ultimately creates.

The problem with reducing 'micro' like this is that there is no limit to the incline of the slippery slope it puts us on. If you can reuse build queues like this, why not allow players to save and load them? Then they could sandbox the perfect BO ahead of time and use that in game without needing to waste time manually ordering it each time. But wait, we could even have a vault that automatically takes the best BOs from the top players and makes them available to everyone else! We should also add some automatic unit micro so that you don't have to spend time doing that yourself. And then we might as well add some basic self-preservation AI to each unit, so if you aren't paying attention to them, they'll try to protect themselves and move out of harm's way. And so long as we have that, we should also add some attacking logic too, so that your units automatically take advantage of mathematically superior engagements should they crop up.

And at some point we'll stop and realize that we were so focused on whether or not we could, that we didn't stop to think if we *should*. Ultimately, FA is an interactive game, which will necessarily involve some level of player interaction, also referred to as 'micro'. Whether or not such micro is a healthy part of gameplay is the deciding factor. Generally speaking, I will always err on the side of caution in this area. FA already has an incredible amount of unit control automation. Each further step that we take will be directly removing gameplay from the player.

At this point in time, there are simply far too many other balance priorities that must be improved before higher level issues like this can be tackled. And while automation in order to reduce micro is a very interesting knob that we have to tweak balance with, these knobs are fundamental pillars of what makes FA, FA, and I do not see any reason to change its identity in such a dramatic manner.

[Ithilis_Quo]

my first reaction was not posted, so i try write it again. (in short edition)..

why not allow players to save and load them? Then they could sandbox the perfect BO ahead of time and use that in game without needing to waste time manually ordering it each time

Yes why not allow it? Actualy it is in game, we all can have perfect templates for each map, and only use it. but no one is doing it, we are too lazy for it:D

BO vault alredy exist, ppl try learn and copypast BO of best player it is already happend and they are not better player when copypast better BO.

we should also add some attacking logic too, so that your units automatically take advantage of mathematically superior engagements should they crop up.

On other hand we can remove automatick attack from units, and allow them attac only when player manual click attack or other order, it take much more micro and attention needed. It is same logic, automatization is good way, because allow player focus on strategic and tactical view. and dont waster time for every single units. Can u imagine supcom whitotu multimple orders? it is pure automatization.

supcom is so great strategy because have best automatization system in every RTS, this is making supcom supcom, not need of mirco. Supcom is game focus on macro, on plenty of units where one units is nothing in comparing with hunderst other. micro is here only as imperfection of autors.

[uberge3k]

You missed my entire point: implementing further automation puts us on a slippery slope. At what point do we decide when enough is enough? If we continue adding helpful automation in logical increments, the game will end up playing itself.

How would you decide when the micro/macro balance is sufficient that more automation is unnecessary?

[Lionhardt]

Oh look it's this discussion again....


Well, I am all for automation of brain dead mechanical labor such a needing to redo a build queue because your engie got killed. This is not Star Craft. Your (strategic) decisions and conceptual skills is what should matter, not your APM.

[Ithilis_Quo]

the game will end up playing itself.

Im sorry but i cant agree. When we add so many automatization so game start play itself, them every single game whiteout player intervention end with draw. So player intervention is that what is crucial for victory. And palyer would not must do stuff like build every single units, because we dont have automatization in build endles units line. Or would must not build every building every time because first builder will got killed.
When you ask where is dividing line on makro vs micro distribution, then i see it as doesnt exist, because this game is about macro, about macro only, micro have no place here. Every win micro fight can change the game to side of player with better atm from player with better tactical option. This game is not about brutal apm and destroed keyboard but about strategic and tactical decision. And that is something that cant be automatized and that is what is going on. make the decision and let units do it.

I see suprem as Chess but in real time, see it as this is most similar game. And cant imagine when in chess would exist some kind of micro, like this pawn kill a queen because he was more lucky and miss her slash

[Zoram]

the game will end up playing itself.

this game is about macro, about macro only, micro have no place here.

that's not supcom you're describing here. Civilization maybe ?

Building bases is micro, upgrading eco is micro, using adjacency bonuses is micro, map control, especially at early game by controlling small groups of units to harass ennemy engies is extremely micro. Upgrading one unit (the ACU) to achieve a particular outcome is micro, moving your ACU arround so it doesn't get snipped is micro. Rushing your ACU to the middle as early as possible is micro.

Fuckup your econ in the first 2 minutes and you're dead, that's pretty micro. A purely macro war game would represent a bunch of generals in a war room making battle plans and leaving the tactical details to officers.