Two Cents about T3 AA

[A_vehicle]

I wasn't sure how appropriate it was to post in http://www.faforever.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=8278
at this point due to the nature of my comment, so to ensure that my comment will be in the right place, here it is:

Spoiler: show

I for one am tired of seeing new units added to the game. I want to play Supcom FA, not Blackops/TotalMayhem/Insertunitmodhere! (no offence to those mods though, they are very well made and of good quality- I just don't use them).

I think some modders are using FAF as an opportunity to force everyone else to use their stuff! No offence, but I also think some modders overestimate the quality of their models, or at least how accepting everyone will be of their ideas (even if they are actually good, but also if they are actually bad).

Don't get me wrong, I mod, and consider myself a modder, it's just that I don't want to play a ranked game with features it didn't ship with (FAF itself is a replacement of GPGnet, a feature it did ship with) and that simplify and/or significantly alter the dynamics of the game.

Jus because a unit doesn't work the way you want it to, doesn't mean that was how the unit was supposed to work in the first place!

And another thing! I think it is important to implement changes to FAF to improve the game, but to throw random mods or features into the game just because you personally like them is short-sighted!

I mean, really! What is the world coming to when somebody can just jump on Bitbuket and throw their own personal mod into the game to force everyone to use it! It is nice to be able to use the whole community to beta test your mod, but I would like to pick what project I am a guinea pig for if I can help it!

And no! Adding unit restrictions to the lobby, so I can opt out of the mod, does not solve the problem! The proper method of going about testing a mod is to let people opt in to the testing, i.e. volunteer.

The bottom line is that I wasn't happy with support factories and the look of factory HQs, and I am not looking forward to T3 mobile AA being integrated into FAF!

No offence was intended to the makers of FAF (which I will not list here for fear of omitting anyone), to whom I am extremely grateful for their time and patience. A_vehicle and all affiliated names and persons are not responsible for loss or damage suffered by those who read this post, including, but not limited to: loss of data due to the use of this forum, loss of limbs due to thrashing uncontrollably against one's screen, loss of sanity due to an all-consuming rage that may be induced upon anyone using, reading, or responding to this post, or loss of life. Not valid with any other offer. Offer is based on a 30 second mortgage and does not include tax, tag, insurance, or anything desirable whatsoever. Offer not valid in all fifty states. While supplies last. See FAF for details. This disclaimer made possible by the Forged Alliance Forever Forum Communiy, and by viewers like you. Thank you.

[Wakke]

I think we need to ask ourselves: 'Why didn't Chris Taylor decide to add mobile T3 AA in SC or FA?' I think we can assume it wasn't due to lack of time /budget. So why? Answering this might help the discussion on this topic.

[da_monstr]

My view regarding this is actually very similar to OP's. Adding new units should not be part of the default FAF mod. I could still stomach engymod, since it didn't change too much. I am sure flak could have been changed in such a way to be able to kill t3 air.
While my wording would not have been quite as strong as OP's, my sentiment is the same.

[Gorton]

All your arguments about playing SupcomFA and that it's not been changed much, example

and that simplify and/or significantly alter the dynamics of the game.

are, quite simply wrong.
This game has changed a huge amount since 3599, the last official GPG patch.
Dozens of units were changed from being near-useless to usuable. T3maa aside, talking about new units in general, adding a new unit is not much different to what FAF has done in making existing units playable. It's just not a valid argument in the slightest.
If you have *real* problems with T3Maa, then I suggest telling us them.

In reality, this thread is "Two Cents about Patches to FA" more than anything else.

[Blackheart]

This thread is actually voicing very valid concerns, which are one of the main reasons steam and FAF are seperated so much. Steam players just want to play FA and not a massively modded game. I can understand that opinion very well - and to put new unit implementations on the same level as damage changes or bugfixes is beyond my understanding. I also agree with the option to opt in such changes a and not just force it onto the players. (do it like it was done with engymod early stages - featured mod) That way it can also be tested how popular the new stuff actually is.

[IceDreamer]

I'm with the OP regarding T3 MAA. Even putting aside the fact that I don't think they solve the problem, even if they were utterly perfect for the job I still wouldn't want to add a new unit, it just seems against the spirit of the game. Engiemod's new Factories I can stomach easily because they are only half a new unit, really. They fill exactly the same job as the original, and only exist because the code demands they exist. If Engiemod could have been done without new units/models, it would have been, is what I'm trying to say.

[Gorton]

I understand what you mean perfectly, but I think balance > our personal feelings towards new units.
Just to make it clear, I'm not supporting t3 maa in that sentence.

[Coffee nut]

All your arguments about playing SupcomFA and that it's not been changed much, example

and that simplify and/or significantly alter the dynamics of the game.

are, quite simply wrong.
This game has changed a huge amount since 3599, the last official GPG patch.
Dozens of units were changed from being near-useless to usuable. T3maa aside, talking about new units in general, adding a new unit is not much different to what FAF has done in making existing units playable. It's just not a valid argument in the slightest.
If you have *real* problems with T3Maa, then I suggest telling us them.

In reality, this thread is "Two Cents about Patches to FA" more than anything else.

You quote his post, "simplify and/or significantly alter the dynamics of the game", but you seem to only concentrate on refuting the second part of that phrase. What about the issues of simplifying the game. I thought patching units to make them more playable increases unit choice and thus makes the game less simple as there are more strategies available.

With regards to t3aa, it's all the more telling that this was posted by Zep:

Indeed, the first "goal" is to not to be more efficient than flak, but more convenient.

If you can replace 20 flaks (it's not easy to move them around) by a few T3 bots, then it fit a role that most of FA unit fit : Replace a bunch of units by a single one.

The second role would be to fit a role. For the moment it doesn't fit any role that is not fit by another unit. That can be tweaked later, as it's more demanding balance-wise.

Neither of these goals suggest to me that it is making the game any more sophisticated; if anything it might even simplify, judging by some responses in the other thread about eventual dominance of land units over others.

Furthermore, it isn't really hard to fulfill the first aim; I'm not sure but that seems to suggest that as long as new units are more convenient than existing ones it might be implemented and the balance of the unit can be worked on from there? It seems like a weird rationale, to be honest.

Of course, it's up to zep and the modders to decide what they do, but let's at least acknowledge or recognise what decisions have been made and what has been claimed.

[Gorton]

You quote his post, "simplify and/or significantly alter the dynamics of the game", but you seem to only concentrate on refuting the second part of that phrase. What about the issues of simplifying the game. I thought patching units to make them more playable increases unit choice and thus makes the game less simple as there are more strategies available.

This is true.


I'm not sure if the rest of your post is directed toward me but just to make sure, i'm not talking about t3maa specifically.

[Vee]

Why so conservative? We should try to make the game as fun as possible. T3 mobile AA may or may not achieve that, but the fact that it's a new unit is irrelevant. The only thing that's relevant is whether the game is better with or without T3 mobile AA. Chris Taylor isn't a god, he initially made mobile missile launchers tracking ffs, along with a ton of other things. FAF brings many huge improvements to the game. Whether T3 mobile AA is an improvement remains to be seen, but you can't dismiss it out of hand.