Differential Rating System in Team Games

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Differential Rating System in Team Games

Postby MetaOntosis » 17 Oct 2013, 23:40

TL:DR? Read this First.
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I propose a team ranking system independent of 1v1 ranking, which evaluates an individual member's performance in a team setting. It would use more dimensions than merely the zero dimensional fact of a team win or loss. It would evaluate the player's performance as part of a team. While the fact of winning or losing as a team would still be a critical, even paramount value, the other factors which I propose would be included would weight the value in a significant way. This weighting would give upward thrust for good team play during a game, and downward thrust for bad team play.

This method would allow a player's good play to mitigate point loss to his rank in a game that his team lost. It would allow a player's bad play to dampen his point gain to his rank in a game that his team won. It would therefore allow a team play ranking which reflected much more than merely the fact that he has been on teams which have won, on average, some certain amount to be worth some certain rank. It would indicate all the dimensions of his play which led to his being at the rank he is, by making all his team play attributes that can be objectively determined a part of his team play rank.

As mentioned, 1v1 ranking would have no influence on team ranking, just as the reverse is currently true. This I suggest should be the case now, but the "global ranking" doesn't break down into 1v1 and team rankings, but acts as that team ranking, and rather poorly at that. It would be automatically better to have a team ranking which is independent of the 1v1 ranking, right now, even if it is simplistically the same as the way it operates as part of the global ranking as it does now. That would be an immediate improvement. The global ranking could then exist as a true composite, in whatever way, of these two independent rankings.

The mechanisms I propose for creating an objective algorithm which analyses player statistics from their play in team games are given in general outline in the OP below. Please read them before attempting to criticize my idea, or making claims about the viability or inherent possibility of it. I think it is a GREAT idea, because, as I argue, it would greatly benefit the play of team games, and make such games more attractive to those who are playing now and who appreciate good team play. Those who like to play in teams but not as true members of a team would find that their individual team rank would decrease more when their team loses, and increase less when their team wins, than those members on their teams who played better as part of team in various ways. No subjective aspects of evaluation would be used, only objective analysis of concrete data which would be extracted from games as in "player tracker" or something similar. Such data would then be analyzed by algorithms which are based on equations intended to reflect an evaluation of the data such as a forensic scientist might provide, combined with the insights of a battle tactician or strategist of war.

That is the general outline of what I propose, I hope this extremely short abstract of the OP helps readers.



OP
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1) What IS such a thing, and Why should we want it?

Players in a team are already rewarded with positive or negative rating increases if, in a rated team game, their team wins or loses respectively. But what if players performed differently during the game in such a way that, if their team one, it was largely through their own spectacular efforts, or if their team lost, it was mostly due to their own poor performances? Or in another aspect, sometimes a team wins, but in spite of a certain players' performance, or the opposite where a team loses in spite of one or two players' spectacular efforts. We've all seen it, so how can it be quantified and brought to bear on the ratings of players? Secondarily, should it be? I'll address the secondary question first.

It should be done, if it can be. There can only be benefits for doing so if it can be done correctly. It addresses a MAJOR problem in team games which the current rating system endeavors to address already, but cannot address fully due to the lack of a sufficient number and complexity of measuring tools. It matters if a team mate plays very poorly and if that ruins an entire teams ratings. Why should their ratings all drop merely because one player decides to "go rogue" and do things which even common sense dictates shouldn't work? Over long periods of time, such players are gradually chastened by hard reality, but in the meantime a lot of good players are hamstrung by their antics, and many simply do not know what they are getting for playing with them by looking simply at their "rating" number. A differential rating system for team games would greatly shorten the duration between a player's performance in team games and the results in their ratings, both for good play and bad.

While the all or nothing approach of the status quo allows for a general net which gradually allows good players to struggle to the top in team games, and it gradually flattens down bad players, there are some features of good and bad play which it cannot seem to address but which themselves affect the overall quality of the game experience as well as the perfomance of teams. I propose that a differential rating system for team games would address both issues and that by definition it would be good if workable, as it would improve the gaming experience for good players who play well together, and punish those who choose to be a perpetual turd in the punchbowl.

2) What is GOOD teamplay vs. BAD teamplay?

Good teamplay is play that wins, or WOULD win if everyone played that way, significantly more than half the time against a team who had equal skill in all non-tactical and non-strategic elements of the game such as interfacing the computer/program format, having good ping/cpu speed, etc. We're talking if each team had "equal skill" and equal forces and was balanced in all such objective and material ways, and then played a thousand games, the team who played well together BETTER would win MORE. Leaving out the issues of mixtures of skill in playing the game AT ALL, and equipments issues, we're talking how well they play as a team tactically and strategically. While the "all or nothing" approach has its obvious merit, it doesn't address the issue of the fact that sometimes a team is carried to a win largely due to one or a few players' efforts, and many times IN SPITE OF one or several players' screw ups. If that "team" one, then it should be especially rewarding for those players who played well, but not so much for the turd who nearly ruined it for the whole team and died on the frontlines in the middle of setons trying to build a fatboy asap. If a team loses, it should be that the entire team loses points to be sure, but especially for the one who sat in the back with his merely defensive airforce while building GC's that only come into battle to defend his base when most of his team mates are dead or reduced to some pockets of resistence, mostly to continue benefiting his incredulous folly of thowing an occasional nuke at giant onslaught of enemies, most of which are swiped out of the sky by missle defenses built everywhere because they've been busy playing FA instead of sim city. HE should lose MORE points than everyone else.

But how to take the quality of game play and quantify it meaningfully and accurately?

3) How to properly quantify: what can be differentiated fairly

Well, first off we can't quantify everything, and many things are too dynamic even though we have a sense of a differential quality about their effects in a game. Sometimes play is good per se, but doesn't lead to any directly measurable effects. Such play as doing scouting runs with one's air units when it is feasible, helping out one's teammates for pecuilar requests when it is doable and might help in some way, are good things which may often have helped in the final result, but there may be no accurate way to quantify such efforts in a micromeasured tally. That sort of thing will have to be rewarded by the satisfaction of having done well and gotten strategic and or social results which may have even resulted in a group win as well, or at least did no harm. But there IS group play which can be differentiated by team member in an accurate way, whether it is beneficial or harmful, and regardless of whether the team loses or wins, but especially in terms of that as well.

Each player has a mirror, and in the grand scheme of battle there is a general truth that if each player can beat his mirror, then the team can beat the mirror team. That is obvious. But often situations get sticky and messy, and asymmetries may abound tactically and strategically which make things as complicated as a game of "go". Good teams compensate well to these and adjust off of the situations as they appear. So if a reargaurd thinks "his job" is to build asfs and experimentals and strategic weapons and devices, okay. If he manages to help the team win by doing that, fine. That's good and he'll get his share of the reward. But what if his front man in say, a Setons match, is not only having trouble with own mirror, but the rear air guard is sending a small squadron of t1 gunships to harrass him, or the naval players are sending some frigates? What if he cannot quite get up any aa, fixed or mobile, in time, nor and torp launchers to his sides, nor has the friendly navies gotten there yet? Well, if we don't want a giant hole in the middle, then we should help plug it before it becomes a giant hole. We need to send units to kill that air force. The rear player has an obvious stake in punishing his mirror by a long-term strategic advantage in asfs, but if that is offset by an enemy land force marching to his gates, what good is that? There is an obvious need for him to help if he can, and the friendly navies had better be doing their part also. In this case, one teammate was beset by all four of the others, and it is obvious that if each of his own comrades does their meagre part, then it would balance out at least. If they just let him die, that is going to reflect badly on them in the team result.

What about the aggressor team? They are cooperating to create a weak point in the lines, smashing a hole through the land player in the middle, and are expected to be at least holding their own against their respective mirrors (if not, then are their mirrors punishing them with counterattacks "where they aren't?). In that case, assuming this is not an excercise in folly, then this is going to help and possibly lead to a strategic advantage which leads to a win. That is its own reward, but shouldn't such excellent cooperative play be rewarded beyond that?

While a failure to hold one's own area, or do one's own "job" well can be ameliorated by the rest of the team, and that can save a game, it is sometimes merely in that the opposing team all focused on him as a vulnerable point, and so it is simply the mirror image of the opposing team's focused aggression. But this is a neutral case, a sort of "zero" where we can see excellent play on both sides offsetting each other. What about the issue of DIFFERENTIAL scoring due to DIFFERENTIAL play? We already see that doing more than one's supposed "job" can lead to spectacular results for a team, or if balked at could lead to a loss for another. But what if the gap in a team was made by the FOLLY of a single player? Or what if the advantage in a team were the result mainly of a single excellent player doing all the right things IN SPITE OF his OWN TEAM being the ones who neutralize those efforts instead of the opposing team?! These are issues which don't find proper expression in the status quo of "all or nothing" scoring. On the whole they lead to a bogging down of good play by bad play, and this should not be rewarded by being ignored when something can be done about it. Let's make FAF a realm where quality is DECISIVELY rewarded, and punchbowls become a lot cleaner, even if not turd proof entirely.

4) Special Cases

When everyone plays well, the games neutralize the issue of who gets what proportion of a win or loss effect on their ratings. If they are equally well played by both sides, that is obviously going to balance out over the long haul, like a coin toss. If each member of a team plays equally well, then the total win, or loss, should be shared equally. Only a damned commie would say that different abilities and quality of play should be rewarded just the same! But how to differentiate?

Grossly, team play is already roughly differentiated. One team must have done something right to win, the other something wrong to lose. Even if both played badly, one must have played worse. Same for good teams. One must have played better. That's always true and will never be negated by anything I propose here. In fact it will be AUGMENTED and made more meaningful by what I suggest. Just as teams are differentiated by the binary logic of win or lose, and this is even gradated by the proportionalities of their total team ratings, and this is even altered for each team member depending upon his particular relation to the team means (hopefully, and if not why not?), SO SHOULD INDIVIDUALS BE REWARDED FOR THE QUALITY THEY SHOW, and this should make direct impact on their numerical rating!

Leaving out areas that cannot be objectively measured, I have a concrete proposal for a specific domain of play which can be measured accurately and can also be worthwhile to measure and reflect back as a ratings change that differentiates the proportion of win and loss points changes to rankings for each team member. These are starting proposals that I think affect the game ONLY POSITIVELY, and do not force players to play in any specific way as to style or method, but accounts for differences in play which are forced in games, or which should have made a difference if elected upon, but which don't get noted in the final tally, and this whether a team wins or loses. I will explain those two main aspects of play now.

5) All for One and One for ALL + Giant Sized Fighting Spirit = ?

Some players strive to do their best not only in their own "sphere" but also look out for the whole team, seeing how they can help. Not all these can be well quantified as far as I can tell now, but some aspects can be tallied well and possibly reflected into their ratings. If a team player drops the ball a lot, it shows becaues he does stupid things like playing middle in Setons and not getting mass from the center, or trying to build fatboys while an enemy t1/t2 army wipes him out. He has done more HARM to his own team by being there at all than if that area were simply EMPTY, or equipped with just one engineer for his team to use instead. They may win in spite of this bad play, and he gets all the reward that they do, or they may lose directly because of this, but they must take all the same loss as he does. That is absolutely ridiculously unfair and ruins the morale of players, and ruins the appeal of the game DRAMATICALLY, excpet for those who enjoy being the fecal matter in the fruit punch. THEY LOVE IT! It seems they care neither for the effects this has on other players, nor even their own ratings. For them a low quality experience is tangibly good, no matter what the effects on others. OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, this will be punished because he'll just languish as a mediocrity at best. But he does a lot of damage to others who want to climb into a better gaming experience, who must suffer him on the way as there is no way to directly reward such play negatively, pushing it directly down to lower tiers where it belongs.

On the flip side, what about a player that KICKS ASS, even among decent but mediocre teammates? He is rearguard, and he is thinking about ASFs and such, but he is looking out for the front lines. He scouts enemy positions, not only for himself, but for teammates. He transports teammates to islands, then gives their units back to them to take those islands with (they may not have transports as fast as he can give them to them, or work it out to take their units and give them back to them on the others side). He uses gunships and inty's in the middle to help the middle guy get his job done, and he might topedo the enemy navies a bit. The middle guy might be doing a lot of land fighting, but he builds some torpedo launchers and a lot of AA, so he takes out a lot of rearguard planes, and sinks a lot of enemy navy ships while STILL holding his own against his mirrror. The navy guys are doing well, and they've had time to build up a t2 air force and take some of those center land player's units around the sides to do some painful stabbing. If the whole team played in this spirit, it'd be great, but what if only one does and the other teammates are just there to die if left to their own initiative? If they win, great for them, but it should be GREATER for the team player who DID MORE. If they lose, then why should he suffer as much in his rating?

Do you now see how a differential rating system could cull stupidity from the higher ranks FASTER, and make getting good at this game more rewarding and FASTER for both new AND old players alike? The increased quality would be expanded in QUANTITY also, leading to many more opportunities for high level group play, and better quality games to send in to Gyle to be cast, giving him his much pined for big selection to choose from.


So let's try to measure in objective terms how a better player can be rewarded, and whether or not his team wins!


6) Down to Brass Tacks

Let the following modifiers to ratings score be true, and it seems that better players will be better rewarded for their play, or harmed less by the poor play of others:

    1) Define primary targets

    Primary targest are enemy units OF ONE'S MIRROR. There is a logic to this which is not arbitrary, but let is stand for arguments sake at this time. If primary units are killed, this leads to a certain number of kills for the player. That is worth some number of points depending upon the value of the targets. That has obvious impact on the team effort, as it neutralizes the efforts of at least one enemy team member who is trying to do roughly what the player is trying to do. That's like taking one enemy player operationally out of the game. That's getting closer to winning. This is nominal play at its best.

    2) Define secondary targets of interest

    Secondary targets are any targets that are NOT of one's mirror. These may be differentiated by their value as well. Killing these are worth substantially more than killing primary targets. This reflects the logic that one has gone above and beyond one's nominal duties, for whatever reason. This is appropriate in every way. If the exception which proves this rule occurs, it will get an exceptional result. For instance, if a player ONLY went after secondary targets, but let his mirror run free unchecked, that would offset his folly with a harsh reality soon enough. The enemy player will be more than happy to punish his insipid "teamwork".

    3) Contextualize primary and secondary quantities


    The above quantities, with certain contextualizing factors, will greatly help differentiate ratings effects of wins or losses in a way that reflects individual playing quality in team games. If a player has been doing well, he gets the nominal results which go with that. If he has been fighting well under extra duress from the whole enemy team, the secondary targets that provides will reflect even better on his score, both qualitatively and quantitatively (the first being a multiplier for the second as a final quantity). If he has been helping a teammate who was under difficulties, his score is benefitted accordingly. If in the final extreme he has aggressively taken on the whole team by himself like a dreadknought, then that is well-rewarded. In any permutation of play which sees a player doing more, and doing it better, he is rewarded well. Players who don't do as well, are rewarded less, proportionately. If that team wins, he wins more. If it loses, he loses less. Simple and straightfoward. But more must be taken in to context in certain special cases.


7) Who loses least?

Further qualifications can lead to even more accurate and differentiated scoring. What if a player has thrown away his position, not because he fought long and hard against the whole other team, alone, and was abandoned by his teammates, but because he just plain sucked? Then he couldn't have racked up a lot of kills that way, could he have? But what if it was because he was abandoned!? What if he DID fight well, but getting a lot of kills wasn't going to be in the cards? What if the rest of his team sucked, but he couldn't prove it by playing stellarly? Well, they are likely to lose as well, playing like that, especially if the other team can perform such coordinated play. It will only get worse for them, and that is their punishment. But if they lose, how can he lose LESS by this system, since he will have so many fewer kills and all due to being left in the lurch against a better team, while his teammates defend only themselves and rack up a ton of kills, including a lot of his mirror's units (since they are not his only targets)? This is interesting. I propose to continue the logic of this system rather than retreat it, or even merely to say we can do nothing about this. We CAN do something about it. Since the other team got an immediate tactical advantage, their coordination is already rewarding in real terms. But there is a rating bonus for three of them who are focusing on a secondary target. The mirror is allowed real term help, but his ratings will cost a bit since his kills are being diluted. Yet he'll probably find a way to recover as there are three other, totally secondary targets to focus on for the rest of the game, when kill counts have higher value due to targets being more expensive. (rules about what you kill a target WITH could also be invented in harmony with all this). But the player being eliminated gets seemingly NO advantage if he was merely left in the lurch by his team. What of his redress? It could be as follows: If his team loses, then his lack of kills cannot show his quality, but how many different secondary units were thown at him CAN help him. If he was massacred by four enemey teammates, then he was killed by a whole other team. Therefore, IN A LOSS, let his number of lost points be tallied in some ratio inverse to the amount of damage inflicted by secondary (non-mirror) attackers, and multiplied by the coefficient of the reverse order he was in as a losing player. So if he lost first, and their were four players, let this multiply to his benefit against the ratio set up by proportion of secondary attackers which dealt him damage. This will mitigate his losses. His losses will be mitigated far less if he was simply destroyed by his own mirror one on one.

But the point of this system is not to reward victims, but to ennoble great fighting. So therefore if a player can last longer and kill more, we want to reward that rather than always attempt to find gold in unlikely places. A player who is abandoned by his team can simply turtle up and rack up a ton of kills, and this will take advantage of the above extension of the principles of differential rating. He sees his situation, and he remedies it with a tactical retreat and a stonewall defense. This rewards him immensely the longer he can hold out, ESPECIALLY if he dies first, but loses no value if he dies last, either (especially if the others were letting him do all the killing). When the dam bursts upon his death, it will be shown that he lost less than others in the final score, certainly more often than not, whether he dies first, or last.

What of his counterpart on the other extreme, who was hiding in the back while all this happened, getting a bunch of experimentals ready while his other three teammates died? He will do vastly more killing and against a proportion of secondary targets possibly larger in his favor as to scoring. He will have a lot of kills, even if he does die last. Here is how THIS is mitigated. If the sequence of other players who died first is shown to be due to "multiplayer massacre" focused upon them, and during those times he hadn't racked up any kills on those opponents involved, then that will factor against his score. If he DID get lots of kills against SOME other player than those involved, that already will mitigate his final score loss, but in this case it will not so much, especially if his only target were select parts of his mirror's base or something. He will not only suffer the greater loss for holing up, as the data shows this to be his action, but he cannot get an advantage from all the last minute kills he'll get against high value targets (especially if weapons chosen to kill targets are set to produce a score in a ratio to the targets, value for value). He has lost this because he was the last player to die, AND because the players who died before him were SINGLED OUT IN COORDINATED ATTACKS. This can be factored in directly from the kill data from both sides and each player.

So the valiant victim and the cowardly camper are taken care of, or at least given redress in this system. And the equations should be created which ensure that the valiant victim, or hero holdout, loses less than the others, who can only mitigate this eventuality by cooperating to redress this situation with immediate gestures in game play. There are several mechanisms which can ensure this, a few of which I've proposed with my very limited knowledge. Others can and should pick up this ball and do much better with it than could I.

What of the players in the middle of this spectrum? They will be the majority in higher quality games, and they will reach those games faster as their ratings converge with like players over time, and much faster and more accurately than they do now. These players will not allow a valiant victim to happen, and will assist a player who is singled out by the opposing team, in any proportion. They will not hole up in the rear, but actively kill things and make a difference throughout the game. They will go out of their way to coordinate with fellow players to make a painful difference for the enemy team, putting the scoring onus of "who loses least" into THEIR lap. These are the cooperative players who will not be valiant (or cowardly) victims, but will not let their teammates become that either. They have much too much dignity to be hiding around in the back, and far too much warrior pride and bloodlust. And this system will shine for such players, bringing them into more and more games with each other, ensuring that it is mainly they who only have to look at this question: "who wins most among the winners"?


8) Who wins most?

In the worst case scenarios, a rough draft propositon has been explained what may be done about them to result in fairer scoring for those members of losing teams. What of winning teams? This is fortunately much easier, and fittingly so. This game is about winning, not losing. By being softer on better players in losing teams, we've mitigated damage done to them by their unworthy "teammates", and helped set up a path for their scores to more quickly reflect their quality over time. This gets them into more games with like-minded, GOOD PLAYERS, and gets them there faster, and it sets the tone of this game to be much superior to what it is now, which is currently a TROLL'S DEN OF BAD CHARACTER AND BAD SPORTSMANSHIP, and just plain bad play.

So with higher players actually BEING higher in skill and quality, not merely better at ecoing faster and clicking better, or better at working hard being different places at once, a HIGHER QUALITY OF GAMING EXPERIENCE is systematically arranged accross the board for all players who want that, and for those who don't, they'll stay down in the moat below, sharking in its murk but never rising to th noble heights among players who actually play well together. They can continue to prove their worth in 1v1, which is far more appropriate for them. I suspect that they will still get great enjoyment from that, and they may even excel at it, but their group play rating will not be grossely benefited as the "global rating" is now. That will be modified to work completely independently of the 1v1. This will prevent the loner TROLL from bringing his favorite smells into more refined company merely because when he sniffs them alone he is made very happy.

Who wins most is easily tallied by the factors of:

    Quantity of kills

    Quality of kills

    Value of kills

    Whether he kills commanders, and how many

    Whether he lived longer on the winning team, or died first (There is already a logic which protects a team from the "Break out Turtle" who let's others die and in the end takes more than his fair share of kills in a meaningless and self-maturbatory final stand, as in the case of the losing variety of the this "last hold-out coward" which was already discussed at the end of 7) above as the "cowardly camper").

All these factors, already indicated or roughly explained, will make the better warrior shine properly by giving him a better portion of the score increase due to a team win, that win being proportionately due to his own excellent play even beyond his fellows. Issues such as how eco plays a part in this can be determined as well. Did a player eco hard and turn that eco into a war machine that did something meaningful for the team? It will be reflected in his score because of the ass he consequently kicks, so that is taken care of already: that is included in the previous discussion in the effects it brings about. Who cares about excellent eco if you can't do anything with it, or if the units you make, or structures you build result in nothing concrete? If he shares resources then that should ALSO go into his personal score as its own factor, whether or not the other players make good use of it. If they do make good use of it then it multiplies in the final win, rather than merely possibly mitigating a loss of points if his team should lose. We encourage warriors, not treasurers, and yet cooperation is still given a nuanced nod in the scores either way. Maybe reclaim should be given a special nod in this case... given its riskiness and its gumption, and its grounding in classical warfare! Sunzi declares that the wise and winning army "eats its opposition" and doesn't spend so much time in its own kitchen or hauling around its own pantries. It lives off the land, and off its enemy's land best of all! Let reclaim have a certain value. There is already a mod which lets a player get resource rewards for killing enemies. In the same spirit, let reclaim have some value for the final score of a player as well, when it is stripped of of the enemy wreckage. Those are just some examples of how such factors, or others I've not noticed or mentioned, can be figured into this paradigm of differential rating in team games in the spirit of noble warriorship.

What of the failure who tries to lurk and skulk among such excellent players so as to parasitically attain a higher rating while doing barely crap? He cannot get up as much , not nearly as much, and needs to play with lower rated players (how did he get in that team anyway?). The score changes will quickly push him into more appropriate ranks. Perhaps in a lower ranking team he will learn the nature of Good Team Play and begin to find his own Quality, and then he will earn the right to games with higher-rated players, rather than have a prolonged, vampiric and clinging relation to them before he is shrugged off finally, fortuitously, only to be allowed to find more victimes elsewhere on the battlefield.


9) Conclusion

This system is but a rough outline, a proposal, an earnest suggestion if it is doable, a humble declaration of love for goodness and high quality and and slightly hateful reproach for the wretched evils which seem to never leave the decaying condition of man, whether he try to live a life of doings in the world or, as a retreat from those, seeks some solace in a game which involves some challenge of wits only others of his species can provide. This decay is the entropy of an evil mind who hates fairness, hates being exposed to truth, hates others for their virtues, and wants an entire world to give his own vices succor eternally. He is everywhere, in the spheres of political economics, at the workplace, in academia, in religious endeavor and science, and perhaps most pitifully, even in realms reserved for amusement and entertainment. He is the internet troll, the heckler in the crowd, the evil jester that taunted the acrobat in "Thus Spake Zarathustra" (by Nietzsche), and barbarian within the gates of society, always emerging from one of these skin bags we call our bodies, seeming to be an eternal and never-riddable parasite on all joy and peace. So if these ideas are practicable, then hopefully they will be considered by one who is able to do something constructive in this area. If they help him do something good in this vein, then GREAT, I'm glad. If not, or if they won't be given any berth in the realm of action, for whatever reason, then I'm glad to have at least hurled one missile of light in the general direction of ugly darkness, which in this world, especially of late, seems to be in just about every direction, in every place we turn. I hope it hits, regardless.
Last edited by MetaOntosis on 18 Oct 2013, 23:57, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Differential Rating System in Team Games

Postby Blackheart » 17 Oct 2013, 23:52

Can you please make a 3 line summary of what you are trying to say?
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Re: Differential Rating System in Team Games

Postby MetaOntosis » 18 Oct 2013, 00:24

Sure.

I suggest a way that the ratings system of FAF could be modified to allow players who objectively play better as members of a team to be given more points in a team win, and lose less points in a team loss.

This would use types of kills against and patterns of damage recieved from mirror and non-mirror players as a quantity which could be extrapolated into a differentiated rating change in team games which would reflect playing patterns that, if rewarded properly lead to better team players getting better scores over time, but worse team players getting worse scores, whether or not the team wins or loses as a whole.

Other factors such as death order in certain instances, and patterns of kills or damage taken to and from whom, would also show patterns of good or bad team play, preventing many forms of bad play from being equally rewarded with good play when a team wins, or good play from being punished as much as bad play when a team loses.



That's three long sentences. But a bit more should be said to clarify. If this system or something like it could be done then it would lead to better quality gaming for everyone in the game who plays as a good sport, as it would not just reward players equally no matter how they played when their team just happened to win, but would focus on the MVP(s) in those cases, and in cases of loss it would mitigate the damage for the MVP(s) as well.

This would act as a catalyst and multiply the effects of the current rating system, in that it would allow better players to get more games with each other based on a common rating which masks less the frustrating fact that crappy players in team games can float on a level with better team players just on the fact that their 1v1 may be good, but in a team they happen to play like a relative dunce or jerk (there is an ample supply of that going on). It would speed up the rate at which this is separated from good team play as it would allow better team players to have better team player ratings independently of 1v1 ratings. There would be 1v1, team, AND global ratings, not merely 1v1 and global, and TEAM ratings would be used when looking for TEAM games.

I am imagining a world where good team players don't have to drag the heavy weight of egocentric trolls around with them into battle. This game can be fun as a team experience when people who enjoy and endeavor to offer a good performance are rewarded rather than punished. The broad brush that an all or nothing scoring does for team games right now leaves a big shadow in which the nasty demons of selfish stupidy can lurk and cause all the mischief they want at really no cost, since they aspire to nothing more, neither aesthetically nor ethically. Best yet, this doesn't have to be made a big ado of formally. It could simply be integrated into the ratings system behind the scenes, and the result will speak for itself over a short period of time. I would bet than in a single WEEK there would be a big and POSITIVE difference!

I think it would be damned interesting even as an experiment if nothing else, but that's not my support for it.
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Re: Differential Rating System in Team Games

Postby Swkoll » 18 Oct 2013, 00:35

Blackheart wrote:Can you please make a 3 line summary of what you are trying to say?

Well he is basically arguing that players in team games should earn rating based on their performance rather than just if their team won our not.

I think what you are saying is nice but not very realistic. The first error you make is that you make the assumption that rating is meant to reward players when in fact it is to categorize them based on skill. The fact is that over time worse players will have lower ratings than players of higher skill because over time they will cause games to be lost.
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Re: Differential Rating System in Team Games

Postby Zock » 18 Oct 2013, 01:17

I read only the short version, but it would be extremly difficult and much work to implement (and no one gonna do that, there are enough other things to do), and all you'd get for that efford is people that play even less in a team, and only for what gives them more rating instead. Killsteals would become a thing, and similar things. Giving the whole team the same rating already results in a maximum of teamplay. Rewarding player based on performance only result in people thinking only about themselfs instead of the team.

I am imagining a world where good team players don't have to drag the heavy weight of egocentric trolls around with them into battle.


Some people are just dicks. You can build the best system in the world, you won't make them pleasant teammates.
gg no re

ohh! what a pretty shining link! https://www.youtube.com/c/Zockyzock
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Re: Differential Rating System in Team Games

Postby MetaOntosis » 18 Oct 2013, 01:20

Swkoll wrote:Well he is basically arguing that players in team games should earn rating based on their performance rather than just if their team won our not.


That's it in a nutshell.

Swkoll wrote:I think what you are saying is nice but not very realistic. The first error you make is that you make the assumption that rating is meant to reward players when in fact it is to categorize them based on skill. The fact is that over time worse players will have lower ratings than players of higher skill because over time they will cause games to be lost.


Well, I don't think of it as a reward per se, even though I use the term. I mean it in the sense of being awarded a category which categorizes them as having an implied level of skill. I mean exactly the same thing as you say.

While it is true, broadly, that better players in team games gradually get a better score, and thereby end up gradually playing with each other more, there is a stepwise functional aspect to this such that someone who is good at some things, but not others, ends up with a higher score because the team carries it but that whole time he was a drag, and put that team on the precipice of loss, and this is certainly damaging to the team even if they scratch out a desperate win.

If there are four 400 level players, and I'm the only one who helps a team mate to fend off a violent attack, or puts serious damage into the enemy territory rather than sitting back and turtling, letting the enemy build up unharrassed and, ironically, funneling all its forces to our weakest turtle who is trying to inflict damage and help others rather than see who can turtle hardest, then I want a better score when we win, because in the former case I was more cooperative and that's what team play is about, and in the second case I was a figther instead of a trench digger, and that is more the spirit of this game. Turtle is a dynamic, but should not be a insulating wall behind which to hide while others take the brunt of active warfare. I think these features of play can be quantified by tracing certain kill patterns and damage patterns, and those patterns are pretty specific to the types of play I'm talking about. I think it would further gradate the classes of skill and add a proper weighting to it which puts some players lower in "skill" than they currently are (buffered by better team players as they are), and it would lift up players whose style of play is much more desirable in team games, for everyone but the special ones who need to play more among each other it would seem. It would help immensely, and with much greater speed and meaningful accuracy than the current broad brush being used, which while better than nothing still has a big gap in it that could be closed.

A main feature of this is that it really would, in aggregate and overall, and over a much shorter time, seperate quality gradations in players skill level in a team, and differentiate this from other aspects of skill which matter also but are not critical to team play per se. Seriously, the only thing separating me from "higher skill" players is skill at eco, up to a large degree. If I merely get good at that, I'll then enter a new rung of play with players who are just as good at eco. Then better tactics and micro will prevail, and then better strategy. But what if this still leaves in its swath of categorization, on each tier, those who play less like a team player and more like a random troll who decided to be a part of your cooperative effort, just because his eco, tactics and strategy are good, but in playing WITH YOU you are basically on your own. Why do I want to be in a team with him? Then again, I can't know each person I meet for the first time, not merely by his rating. But if ratings strategically factored in this team play aspect, then in new games with new people, I can generally expect that as I get higher I get not only players who are more cunning and skilled, but more worth playing with on a team.

I don't think this "solves the problem", but it seems like it might put a dent in it. It seems worth experimenting to see if it can really help.

It should be pointed out that there is always going to be an overlap between a bad team player with high interface and eco skills but bad tactics and strategy, with a player that whenever he is on a good team uses his limited skill EFFECTIVELY WITH OTHERS, so that they will gradually converge into common team ratings, mainly though becuase the one who is good playing alone has a rating in 1v1 which helps his global rating, and there is no "team rating" which punishes bad team play per player. 1v1 helps, by definition, per player. So it is already, even as things stand now, an awkward influence on the global rating insofar as this is tantamount to a "team rating". A real team rating, based on a differential rating system which takes into account aspects of team play performance (not just "performance" in the abstract) would add thrust to such players in their team ratings, and would prevent undue influences from 1v1 ratings from giving a false team rating indicator. Yeah, he's dangerous to the enemy in some way, because of his raw skill as could be reflected in 1v1, but he is just as dangerous to the rest of his own team. This is really intuitively wrong.

This overlap can be redressed by creating a team play ranking which takes into account the team play factors I sugggested in some way, perhaps in the way I suggest or perhaps in other ways, and also by distinguishing and retracting the degree of influence that 1v1 has on global rating, or at least not carrying that over into the team rating that would be newly invented. If the 1v1 were more important in the composite global rating than team rating would be as part of that new composite "global rating", that would be fine, if it were felt that 1v1 player skill is in some way a higher indication of "raw total skill" than team play dynamics. I've no argument with that. But there is nothing in the team play ranking which rewards team play per individual, nor mitigates on the individual's behalf when the team loses. And since teams are composites of these individuals, and they are not rated for team play based on TEAM play, then it seems that team play is just a bunch of individuals having a free for all but not being allowed to target the players nearest them. That leads to a chaos where this style of play is mixed too headily with the team play style which is what team play is about. Indeed, they may not be able to directly target their teammates, but their play can directly target the experience of the game their teammates have, and can even directly result in the team's own loss as a whole as well, which is just as bad as being able to directly shoot at them. It is even worse really, because aside from being demoralizing, it is something I can do nothing really about. It is the worst form of passive aggressiveness, as there is not even a redress to it in the final score, even if we lose, a good player has to bite the bullet with the asshat who says "stop crying" and "it's only a game". The other team is happy to take this win rather than be the team who is, as their rhetoric would have it, "butthurt" merely for "being losers". Even if my team had won, it would have been a Phyrric victory in light of the unfortunate drag of the "not teammate" who practically threw himself in the way of our common victory, rather than helping us pave a common way toward it, win OR lose. It hurts even more when we lose, which is more often the case.

I would even argue that if you took 8 equally skilled 1v1 players, and put them into two teams of four, then the four who cooperated in ways that the rating modifications I suggest would factor into their rating, would win more often by a significant margin. This would immediately give them a higher rating. Meaning, really, that in team play they always did deserve that rating. In the collective pool of players then, they also deserve that rating. But how can it be achieved in a way that is parallel to this example I just mentioned when there is no factor in rating players' team play that accounts for this difference in play. The overall situation is that in each rating category the types of players are thoroughly mixed in such a way that there is no differentiation in this regard at all. In fact, sadly, I've gotten more rating increases from playing 1v1 against other players than I have in playing teams, because my strength as a player in team games is confined by the dynamics of the politics of play can result in a "common loss" for which my own play as a team player offers no mitigation whatsoever when we lose, nor any extra reward when we win. And for all this chaos we may still amble into a win, but with a very unpleasant game for the real team players, who hold the line for narcissists, or who suffer the drag of mishappen teammates who would be better off playing Sim-FAF alone in a sandbox, or strictly 1v1 with no thought for impacts on teammates experience and play. But these factors do not directly affect rating, since they are masked by the binary result of a collective team win or loss. But if regardless of team win or loss such factors were accounted for to some degree, and if these affected rating increase and loss differentially per player's performance, then it would allow for a better team player to go up, and a worse team player to go down in "skill" according to that rating, and that would mean team games in which rating windows are given would have a more accurate idea of what level of team play they'd be getting per se than currently. You'd know that the pressures of higher skill are rewarded with higher rank partly if they are good team players.

Theoretically there would be those who, as the chat room rules suggests, tarry around in the shadows of the barely permissible, but these would be weeded out faster as the BETTER PLAYERS go up in rating MORE than them PER EACH TEAM WIN, and the worse players go down more than the better players PER EACH TEAM LOSS. This is clearly a rectifiying pressure on the attitudes of players and the "energy" of players in each skill category, each game carrying with it a numerical result which is differential with respect to this aspect of play no matter what, and also conveying an energy during the game which permeates its atmosphere, and would even be more and more conducive to better team play during the game itself, and not merely in the aggregate flow of skill progression per individual. It seems like a subtle point on th surface, but it is akin to the motion of a point in a vector field. That point has motion, even if it seems to be unmoving, becuase it is part of an undulating flow of energy which has a result on the quality fo the whole field in which it exists. A player is not a static entity in his skill category, that is already known. Now we would be addressing an important dynamic of the "charge" of energy, of its instantaneous momentum in a given direction, which would have powerful results over the carreer of each game, between games, and across the whole rung of games players play. It would affect the entire energy field of the game itself, and of the entire FAF community. It may even promote the game in a way that is more powerful than one might imagine. the field effect of qualitative changes, however subtle they seem per a instantum, taken on the whole have such a huge impact on the total experience of each agent or entity involved, and on scales and from dimensions they may never directly percieve.

It could be the silent tremor from many miles away, that later visits as a giant wave of water.

Not only that....

This could be retroactively applied... to all previously played games... and it would be indifferent to learning curves of mods or integrated updates to the game!

All replays could be continuously or over time run through a computer devoted temporarily to rescoring all team games based upon this rating criterion. I wonder just what the new ratings of players would look like with this important team play differential rating effect if it were revealed in its impact over one hundred team games, or one thousand team games. That would be very interesting. I predict that the changes would be dramatic, even though all the wins and losses were the recorded the same...
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Re: Differential Rating System in Team Games

Postby MetaOntosis » 18 Oct 2013, 02:06

Zock wrote:I read only the short version, but it would be extremly difficult and much work to implement (and no one gonna do that, there are enough other things to do), and all you'd get for that efford is people that play even less in a team, and only for what gives them more rating instead. Killsteals would become a thing, and similar things. Giving the whole team the same rating already results in a maximum of teamplay. Rewarding player based on performance only result in people thinking only about themselfs instead of the team.


I don't agree with your take on this. It is not too difficult to do for someone, if they saw the possible value in it and had the requisite skill. I don't have the skill in that sort of thing, I just have a vision for the idea. Someone may have both, if they read this and agree with me from their own heart. Then they may do it, if they have the time and want to. There is no reason to rule that out.

If giving the whole team a single flat reward, positive or negative, on their ratings really "results in a maximum of team play", then I would not be discussing this. I'm far from the only one who would say that it does not.

Rewarding a player based on their team performance would reward less selfish behavior, not the reverse. I detailed a way that could be ensured, even in worst case scenarios where some may try to take advantage by "killstealing". That has been factored in. Besides, if "killstealing" results in a win for the team, the more power to it. He needs to progress to a level with similarly skilled killers. By this system he will. Too bad that our current system doesn't reward killstealers like it ought to. I'd much rather have a player on my team who has an extra eye to "steal kills" which were trying to "steal kills" on me themselves, were it not for his "greedy selfishness" which stood in the way. That would be much more convenient for me and the team if that happened than if someone were merely allowed to steal a kill AGAINST me from the other team, simply because nothing preventeed him even though someone COULD have lifted a finger and changed the whole situation but would rather play base camper and live in his own world. What a team player that is. And why shouldn't he be rewarded for earning those kills (don't know what you mean by stealing actually)? He will certainly not commit suicide just to steal a few kills on my behalf. He would never put himself in such danger over the rating effects. If he wasn't likely to do so before, this rating system wouldn't probably motivate him to change his pattern of behavior. If I don't have an air priority, and I'm be torpedo bombed to hell all of a sudden, and he couldn't spare a some inty's before, why should he now? Oh, maybe he'll be persuaded a little because of the new rating factor, likely not. But it wouldn't HURT the team either way because it is scored differentially. It WOULD help me in at least one way... I explained that in my long version. I also explained how it might affect the selfish asshat's score in a negative way. Not just me, but anyone in that situation. Sadly that must be pointed out for some readers.

I don't see any way that this would cause anyone to think more selfishly than they already do, but I do see ways it would penalize such play, and reward the opposite. People would likely think the same way, but those who already think less selfishly and for the team benefit would see rewards for it, whether they play a prominant role in a team victory, or are the best fighter even in a team which dragged them down into defeat with them. It is nobler and better than than the status quo.
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Re: Differential Rating System in Team Games

Postby Mycen » 18 Oct 2013, 06:20

MetaOntosis wrote: and slightly hateful reproach for the wretched evils which seem to never leave the decaying condition of man, whether he try to live a life of doings in the world or, as a retreat from those, seeks some solace in a game which involves some challenge of wits only others of his species can provide. This decay is the entropy of an evil mind who hates fairness, hates being exposed to truth, hates others for their virtues, and wants an entire world to give his own vices succor eternally. He is everywhere, in the spheres of political economics, at the workplace, in academia, in religious endeavor and science, and perhaps most pitifully, even in realms reserved for amusement and entertainment. He is the internet troll, the heckler in the crowd, the evil jester that taunted the acrobat in "Thus Spake Zarathustra" (by Nietzsche), and barbarian within the gates of society, always emerging from one of these skin bags we call our bodies, seeming to be an eternal and never-riddable parasite on all joy and peace.


WOW :shock:

You are incredibly passionate about this! How many games have you played with players who weren't useful that you would think of another SupCom player as a "never-riddable parasite on all joy and peace"?

Building and maintaining an effective economy is a skill that takes practice to learn and perfect. It is the core element of Supreme Commander, and must be learned in order to do anything. Fielding and managing an army (or air force, navy, etc.) is a skill that is even more difficult to learn and perfect, and, since it is possible to win a game solely on the strength of your economy, one that players only learn as they get more advanced.

Effective cooperative play is, as well, a skill that takes practice to learn and perfect. But unlike economy and micro, it is not a part of any supcom experience - people often play solo, either with computers or 1v1s. Furthermore, you can develop both of the aforementioned skills with the basic SupCom interface. Effectively coordinating with a team, however, really requires some sort of voice communication. It also requires getting to know that person and their playstyles and idiosyncrasies. Most importantly of all, (and especially significant if you don't have the previous two things in place) it requires a much greater ability to multitask. It can be difficult enough for a low or medium skill player to keep track of all of their own units and actions. To keep track of all of your own things, as well as act in concert with the actions of another, or two, or three others? Effective cooperative play is a very difficult skill to perfect.


You talk about people who are poor team players ruining the sum total of the human experience :roll: but how would you feel about playing with someone who isn't good at ecoing, or isn't good at managing his units? Would a person who flies his airforce in to support your attack and loses all his planes be a person whose "evil mind who hates fairness, hates being exposed to truth, hates others for their virtues, and wants an entire world to give his own vices succor eternally"? Because they are just as useless as the person who sits back in his base and builds nukes. Yes, there are some trolls, but in all of the games I have played on faf, there was only one where I had a teammate deliberately sabotage the team. How many have you really encountered? After all, merely being poorly skilled is not indicative of an "evil jester," it is indicative of someone who isn't as good as you want them to be.



Your idea has merit, although, as has been pointed out, it is not likely to go into effect for some time, if at all. But perhaps you should find your own group of friends to play with and a microphone so you can communicate effectively. You can get games going with people you know you can trust to work with you, and perhaps lighten up about the rest. After all, as you point out, it's meant for entertainment.
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Re: Differential Rating System in Team Games

Postby Ze_PilOt » 18 Oct 2013, 07:58

I only need to read the first lines of your OP to answer you :

It's not possible.

There is no unbiased way to analyses a player performance, even less from a bunch of statistics.
If there was a program able to watch a replay and judge players performances, well, sell your program to the army, because you have the best AI on earth.

I don't agree with your take on this. It is not too difficult to do for someone, if they saw the possible value in it and had the requisite skill. I don't have the skill in that sort of thing,


Please, If you don't have the skill for doing something, don't say it's not difficult to do.

In this case, it's not that it's hard to do, it's that it's not possible, at all.
What would be the "performance"? Eco ? Number of units ? Ratio of kill/lose ?

These doesn't mean that much in a game. You can have the best ratio and the best eco and still do shitty decisions that lead to your team losing.

You could also be the better player in your team, but because one of your teammate didn't protect his area, you are now attacked by dozen of bombers, wrecking your base.
It's not your fault, the faulty player has probably a better "performance" than you now because he wasn't the target, ....

Whatever you choose to determine a player performance :
- It will be biased.
- It will be abused (oh it's the best ratio? I will just make scouts and park them in a corner!)

Finally, the purpose is wrong. If you are playing a teamgame, the teamgame performance matter. Not individual skills (you should play 1v1 then).
And we are already evaluating it most unbiased way possible : Do you win or not.
Everything else is pretty much irrelevant.
If a player was "bad" but his team won, he wasn't bad enough to handicap his team, or his team was really, really good.
Both are reflected in the rating currently, and it's more or less accurate to evaluate a person relative skills.
Nossa wrote:I've never played GPG or even heard of FA until FAF started blowing up.
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Re: Differential Rating System in Team Games

Postby da_monstr » 18 Oct 2013, 08:05

Can you please make a TL;DR for 1st post?
Peace through superior firepower.
[Total Biscuit, comparing FA to SupCom2] "The scale and the sublime nature of the economy was ruined with Supreme Commander 2, which I absolutely despised. Oh god, I hate that game so very much."
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