Rebalancing subs

[CopyyyCattt]

Essentially rebalance to remove homing or reduce it so it can be evaded with micro.
Why? Cause sure hit weapons are boring...Nerf the homing and buff them in some other way.

[BRNKoINSANITY]

The short range of subs and the horrible acceleration/turning of subs would make taking homing off pretty pointless because you would rarely be able to dodge by changing direction anyway. As for the premise behind homing, why should torps not home? This is a futuristic war and the torp is a self propelled and guided projectile. The torp NOT homing would quite frankly be ridiculous.

[CopyyyCattt]

Its not about realism..u could say that about anything in the game..why shouldnt lasers home in? i mean its the future...
You could micro subs by not stopping them and keeping them moving..ok they are slow so dont stop them...wiggle them around and avoid torps. would make it much more interesting that just "who got more subs".

If you remove homing you gotta buff them anyway. so buff their speed or accelration or turning speed. or make them cheaper.
whatever as long as their shots can be avoidd with good micro. would make it more fun...

[BRNKoINSANITY]

Supcom is mainly about NOT having to micro every single unit. That is what makes the game fun to the people who play it

[CopyyyCattt]

you dont have to. but you can. do you not enjoy land battles? where projectiles are not homing? now tell me you enjoy sea battles more..very few people do. Homing projectiles goes against all FA is..whats the point of simulating a projectile's movement if its gonna hit 100%...aside from the occasional "projectile hit land or a mountain"...

[Mycen]

. do you not enjoy land battles? where projectiles are not homing? now tell me you enjoy sea battles more..very few people do.

Really? "Very few people do?" I would love to know where you get that data from, because I see lots of people that enjoy naval battles as much or more than land battles. I know I enjoy naval battles, they are distinctly different from land battles, and part of that is because ships are relatively unwieldy. (Which makes sense to me!) The main focus with naval battles is on is maneuvering the fleet as a whole and selecting targets, not managing and positioning individual ships.

Besides, torpedoes, unlike the projectiles involved in land battles, can be intercepted by defensive systems that a great number of naval units possess. They also have a very limited number of targets that they can engage. So they should have some sort of perk. And they do! It also makes subs better at capable of hit and run attacks, they can cruise by at the edge of torp range or move away from pursuing vessels and the torps will still race off toward their target. Subs don't have to drive straight at their targets. Why would you want subs to be unable to shoot behind or to the side?

Homing projectiles goes against all FA is..whats the point of simulating a projectile's movement if its gonna hit 100%...aside from the occasional "projectile hit land or a mountain"...

Then how about we remove homing from SAMs as well? Would that improve the enjoyment of air combat? After all, what's the point of simulating the projectile if it's going to hit 100%, right? No.

[CopyyyCattt]

comparing subs to air units and basing your argument on it is imo silly.
Air has very imprecise micro demands. There is no point in making sam not homing because u cant precisely micro an air plane except gunships,
even bombers are not really viable for "evasions micro".
Subs and ships are completely different.Their movement is not broad and does not involve huge turning archs.Here removing homing would enrich the game.

[Hawkei]

Copy Cat,

This is not a good idea. It would actually may naval battles tedious and annoying. Because torpeedos are not kinetic projectiles, and they travel so much slower. Compared with the speed that the ships, or submarines themselves move. It would turn the naval contest into a siduation where micro was MANDATORY, because a fleet which microed could entierly avoid taking damage. Conversley, one moment of inattention would render your vessels killed very quickly.

Since the inception of this game, submarine torpeedos have undergone some significant nerfs. To the extent that T1 subs are generally usless as soon as T2 destroyers arrive. This basically undervalues the entire submarine combat theate. Because the primary ASW vessel also happens to be the primary Anti-Surface Vessel as well. Submarines are therefore relegated to sniping Engineers and Cruisers.

TBH, I have often thought that submarines in this game needed reworking. There needs to be some point to having them. The first issue I have is that the torps should do more damage. Secondly, all submarines should be able to avoid sonar detection when not moving. Finally, there should be some different interaction between destroyers and submarines. Such that the destroyers are equipped with rocket launched torpeedos and depthcharges. They can kill submarines at range. But should the submarines get close. The first volley will do significant damage, or destroy the ship outright.

This is just my opinion, but all torpeedo weapons should have increased damage, and reduced range. So that submarines need to get close to their prey, but when they do, their attack will be devastating. They should also have stealth when not moving or firing. With the exception of the Cyrban T2 sub, which is still stealthed while moving.

Depth charge weapons on destroyers should have longer range and be rocket launched. But should also have a minimum range radius. As a destroyer based weapon depth chargers should only be made to target sub-surface vessels, and the Destroyers should have a sonar stealth detection radius equal to 2/3 of depthcharge range. So a stealthed sub will get closer. But should the sub get inside minimum firing range, the tables are turned, because the depthcharge rockets cannot be fired.

Of course, this means that the submarine is much more powerful against anything that is not escorted by a destroyer. So underwater sonar contacts should have the Grey "U" and surface contacts be shown as inverted "U". So that it is obvious which is which.

However, this is a major game concept change, and will never happen in FAF. Unless a mod is made for it.

[Mycen]

comparing subs to air units and basing your argument on it is imo silly.

Asking you to clarify an overly broad statement is far from "silly." What about the Seraphim destroyer and UEF battlecruiser? Those weapons hit automatically, but I don't see you complaining about them too. Sera/Cybran T2 PD? All factions' T1 PD? Cybran Microwave laser? What about the non-UEF ACU gun upgrades? Rhino? Riptide? T2 gunships? Titan? The Galatic Colossus's weapons? Novax laser?

There are dozens of weapons in this game that either hit automatically, or whose projectiles move so fast that it is not realistically possible to dodge them. To single out torpedoes with the claim that homing weapons "go against what FA is" is demonstrably false. Some weapons always hit. Some do not. Either way, if there's a hill in the way, they will not magically pass through it to hit their target. That is "what FA is."

comparing subs to air units and basing your argument on it is imo silly.
Air has very imprecise micro demands. There is no point in making sam not homing because u cant precisely micro an air plane except gunships,
even bombers are not really viable for "evasions micro".
Subs and ships are completely different.Their movement is not broad and does not involve huge turning archs.Here removing homing would enrich the game.

Yes, planes are harder to micro for precise positioning, but so what? Ships are harder to micro than land units, they turn more slowly, are slower, and are bigger targets.

And really, how would it enrich the game? That you have to keep a close eye on all your subs now? That doesn't enrich the game, that's just annoying. SupCom is supposed to be about managing a large campaign, while still being able to control the outcome of particular battles. Units are supposed to perform as intended, with micro allowing a player to turn an even engagement that would end in a draw into a victory. It is not supposed to require that every unit needs to be microed to achieve normal effectiveness.

[gnatinator]

Want to complain about naval homing weapons? You forgot the biggest offender of them all.

Godlike protip ONLY for Seraphim players:

The Seraphim T2 Destroyer. Your enemies cannot evade the Uashavoh's beam weapons. Just keep issuing random move orders and hit them every time while evading their shots. This advantage allows Seraphim players to lazily win naval battles even when outnumbered 3:1.

Play Sera? Have fun exploiting that.