T2 "tanks" needs rebalance

[Sunny]

I feel this isn't ready to go to patch suggestions yet, so I let's discuss.

Let's consider, that player isn't into heavy micro and going to push straight with t2 tanks. There is a problem, can you do this or you can't depends on your race, you can't do this now with any race even comparatively even. Because current T2 "tank" balance is a mess, and I'll show why.

In direct engagements, winning or losing a fight and economy damage depends on how many damage total a group of units can inflict. So now, I'll remind you some math we all know.
It's DPS * (average number of units) * (seconds of engagement).

The simplest among others is formula is for case when whole group uf units gets destroyed (the worst case scenario).
DPS * (N/2) * (HP * N ) / (enemy DPS) ) =>
(HP * DPS) * N^2/2 / (enemy DPS)

Let's take 2 core characteristics.
HDM: HP * DPS / Mass - effective hp * dps for mass 1 mass. With micro HP is going to be more important but for now we neglect it.
2000M: (HP * DPS) * (2000mass / cost in mass)^2/2 / (1 DPS)
- is a measure of pain, bought for 2000 mass.

Aeon
BLAZE
Health: 1050hp (regen rate: 0hp/s, armor type: Normal)
Abilities: Hover
Economy: mass: 220, energy: 1320,
Quantum Autoguns (Direct Fire, Normal): 50 dps, range: 0 - 23, area
HDM: 238.636363636
2000M: 2126250

Obsidian
Health: 1000hp (regen rate: 0hp/s, armor type: Normal)
Shield: 1750hp (size: 3, regen rate: 2hp/s, recharge time: 75s, Economy: mass: 360, energy: 1800 (-10), build time: 1600
Quantum Cannon (Direct Fire, Normal): 120 dps, range: 0 - 20, area
HDM: 916.666666667
2000M: 4125000

Cybran
Rhino
Health: 1150hp (regen rate: 0hp/s, armor type: Normal)
Economy: mass: 198, energy: 990, build time: 880
Particle Cannon (Direct Fire, Normal): 64 dps, range: 0 - 23, area
HDM: 371.717171717
2000M: 1840000

Wagner
Health: 1450hp (regen rate: 0hp/s, armor type: Normal)
Economy: mass: 297, energy: 1980, build time: 1320
Weapons:
Meson Rocket (Direct Fire, Normal): 50 dps, range: 0 - 22, area Heavy Electron Bolter (Direct Fire, Normal): 50 dps, range: 0 - 22
HDM: 488.215488215
2000M: 2610000

UEF
Pillar
Health: 1500hp (regen rate: 0hp/s, armor type: Normal)
Economy: mass: 198, energy: 990, build time: 880
Gauss Cannon (Direct Fire, Normal): 53.85 dps, range: 0 - 23, area
HDM: 407.954545455
2000M: 2019375

Riptide
Health: 1700hp (regen rate: 0hp/s, armor type: Normal)
Abilities: Hover
Economy: mass: 363, energy: 1980, build time: 1320
Weapons:
Hells Fury Riot Gun (Direct Fire, Normal): 90 dps, range: 0 - 18
HDM: 421.487603306
2000M: 1912500

Sera
Ilshavoh
Health: 2500hp (regen rate: 0hp/s, armor type: Normal)
Economy: mass: 360, energy: 1800, build time: 1600
Aire-au Bolter (Direct Fire, Normal): 116.67 dps, range: 0 - 26
HDM: 810.208333333
2000M: 3645937.5

Yenzyne
Health: 1300hp (regen rate: 0hp/s, armor type: Normal)
Economy: mass: 220, energy: 1320, build time: 880
Tau Cannon (Direct Fire, Normal): 43.75 dps, range: 0 - 18
HDM: 258.522727273
2000M: 1820000

For UEF T3 Titan (for reference)
HDM: 1182.91666667
2000M: 4542400

As we see, HDM correlate with 2000M pretty good. For larger mass numbers *M characteristics are going to be a bit better for cheaper units.

I can suggest at least this.
1. Sera bot need at least to have range of commander, which is 22, instead of 26. I would make range of Rhino, Pillar 22 too, so that they couldn't outrange comm.
2. Rhinos are worse than Wagners as heavy tanks, which is shame as Wagners are amphibious. This obviously needs to be fixed.
3. 2000M (or equivalent) characteristics of all faction's heavy tanks sould not differ more, than 30%, this breaks the game.

I would accumulate feedback, and then suggest some changes for balance patch.
What do you think about all this?

[tronman]

units in fa are not suposed to be ballanced as individual units but used in mixed armies some factions have weaker t1 but better t2 and so forth take eon for example there t3 ground are the least versatile and in my opinion utter garbage on there own. but there stats look good on paper and after mixing t1+t2 units in like mobile shields etc its a diffrent story. i think firstly to ballance units you need to look at the race and what units they field and how versatile they are do they hover over water etc.
just my thoughts.

[Lognosh]

I don't think this needs fixing.

I only play my mate here and we never came across any imbalance in the game. We play random usually. We thought that alot, but after some time you know what to do.
I don't fear the sera t2 bot and sometimes think when i play sera its to weak for the problems that arise with it.
Don't get me wrong on weak, its build time is just soooo long. (that makes OC really painful)
In a stressful game that will grind your play.
Sure one could do lots of damage... still a really good unit... but it is very obvious what sera will do on land so they are easy to handle. The bots consume time, need lots of micro and will be countered easily.

Vs UEF mongoose will be out, vs cybran either millions of rhinos or a good hoplite wagner mix and against aeon... yeah t2 is either skipped or my buddy will do really freaky things, like using shields and lots of t1... Aoen is weird, they are either totally weak or super strong. I hate to play them but they simply own certain maps.
Have you ever tried the hardcore rhino spam? Its awesome against t1 superspam. Rhinos are my favorite panic Unit.

I think the balance is fine so far. Uef appeared to me unbeatable, but then we noticed its just very easy to play. The percyval could use some more build time, i would think cause those things are just imba when used correctly, but only the sight of Uef will speed up all engagements and so it is fine for us
Uef is only strong if it has time to grow.

Also you neglected the movement speed... I believe that is really important. The Wagner is super overpowered i give you that, but Cybran has no shields so that is fine... and if you find a way to counter the Percival with cybran without fast aggression on land, please tell me. (I use wagners and hoplites and lots of mantis, no t3 at all and it worked better than having bricks in the mix or having an XP) So dimming the Wagner down will give me problems :/

Some things may have Counters from other techs, most of the time lower techs. I think the t2 is fine, I only need to learn how to play the Aeon. I only use the shields and t1...

Just my opinion... I sometimes think something in the game is OP, but then i really want to beat it and I usually do after a while. Its really complex and awesome, but unbelievable good balanced.

Again I mostly play one guy. We know what the other will do so we play counter on counter and need good mixes. We are of almost equal level and we do this on faf for a year now. We both don't think you got a point there.

[Sunny]

I don't think this needs fixing.

I only play my mate here and we never came across any imbalance in the game.

Well, this is written for people, who play hundreds of games in competitive ladder, if you have fun with FA, keep it that way, this math is just not for you.

[eXivo]

i don't think the sera bot needs a range reduction, i agree with the rhino/wagner thing though

[Lognosh]

Well, this is written for people, who play hundreds of games in competitive ladder, if you have fun with FA, keep it that way, this math is just not for you.

I play very competitive and that is simply no math.

If you want to show imbalances build up a model and take more things into account. People who play this game are actually very smart. I know my opinion doesn't concern you cause your mind is fixed on the pursuit of personal goals and logic, but its the same with me.

Okay lets play mathematically just sera vs cybran.
We get rid of the arty to make it less complicated and take only t1 tanks, the sera t2 bot and also rhino and wagners into account. No use of Acu. That are harsh restriction and not realistic, but from that on i can draw you some very nice conclusions.
Assume equal mass intake into account and first thing you should notice if you play Thaams vs Mantis is that more Mantis will be produced and they are in fact just a little stronger.

Lets start Thaams vs Mantis shall we?
60 on 60 resulting by time delay and all that we will end up with around 63 Mantis 60 Thaams. (production time not mass, t2 will equal this believe me)
The Thaam has a projectile of 32 dmg which means 9 shots are needed to kill just one mantis. 35 Projectiles of just one mantis kill one Thaam. Mantis need 10.3 seconds the Sera tank needs 11.7 seconds. The Mantis is also faster in movement speed.
Pure speaking from Math, Sera lies short and should play a little more defensively.
Still they got the Scout, that will even it out perfectly, but its not into account here :/.

Change of pace just both players change to t2.
The Sera t2 bot will kill mantis at a new speed. Projectile Dmg is 35 makes 8 shot's for a Mantis, Mantis life time 2.4 Seconds.
Speed is extremely slow 2.5 and build time will be a pain. 10 Sera Bots are Equal to 12 Wagners or 18 Rhinos. This is simply build time. The mass value is not of concern, believe me. Transition can still be equal.
So how Imba is the bot really? 10 Sera bots dispatch 18 Rhinos in 18 Seconds plane. 18 Rhinos will take around 22 Seconds . Sera has huge advantage also with the range. Is it really like it? A Rhino kills a Thaam in just 4.3 seconds, value for 18 is 0.24 seconds. Exactly the Value of 10 Sera Bots! (you wont think that the rhinos are also cheaper, but they are around 46 Mass)
Making the Rhino with the Speed and all a better dispatch of Thaams. Speed is Equal, Range is way better.
The Sera bot can be easily outrun by the Mantis. On Numbers the Rhino is a better way to dispatch Spam.
I see brilliant math here. Rhinos are great.

Taking into account the great Wagner.
Again 10 Sera bots against 12 Wagners. The Sera bots will take 15 Seconds to kill them, by dps and life.
The Wagner Caculation is really annoying here. So i round it up. They now make 400 Dmg every 4 seconds.
Leaving us with 20 Seconds. Also with the Range and all the Wagner appears weaker as the Sera bot. It kills a Thaam around all 3 seconds, making the total value around 0.25. Mass price is EXACTLY equal to 18 rhinos.

This is a very simple calculation that reveals some aspects of the game.
Not taken into account.

Acu (they are different and key to the game)
OC (painful with less units)
Air
Rocket bots (why reduce sera range? will you speed it up then?)
Vision, Stealth, early transition to t3, Energy, Concentration, Micro, Terrain and alot more.

Still i find it to be equal. If you play the game like a player.
This means micro your Units annoy your opponent.

Cybran has more tools on the field. Sera has less but stronger tools.
Understand the tools, use them to your advantage.

Conclusion.
You are wrong and make no point like this. Recalculate. Take into Account Build time. Find a factor for speed.
Make a matrix with all the Unit and link them in their kill rate min|(Ax-b)| or something like that. That would be awesome!

That is just my opinion. Feel again free to dismiss it, but you asked for it. There is nothing wrong with Rhinos wagners or those sera bot thing

[ColonelSheppard]

play very competitive

1200

[Sunny]

I play very competitive and that is simply no math.

If you want to show imbalances build up a model and take more things into account. People who play this game are actually very smart. I know my opinion doesn't concern you cause your mind is fixed on the pursuit of personal goals and logic, but its the same with me.

Well, Lognosh, as I said, if you have fun, keep it that way, this is going to be better for you. I'm not going to comment assumptions about my personal goals and logic, and I definitely bring math.

If you criticize something, and want youself to be taken serious, you need to suggest something or add some value.
Points like "you didn't mention this and that and thus you didn't take it into account" are pointless and have nothing to do with making anything helpful or useful to anyone. Or let us consider you a troll

There is no way to count all the game as it's around players decisions (we can go forward to compare UEF t2 air with Sera t2 land, for example). My post is exactly about t2 tanks and units built to serve as tanks in real games or candidates (Wagners, for example). This is why t2 bots are excluded.

This is okay for me (personal view) that one faction has 30% buff or nerf on some stage, but not 100%. Also people sometimes say things like "you souldnt nerf the bot as the t2 floating tank is crap and there is no shield for Sera on t2". Well, I guees, this is a good cause to think about changing floating tanks.

I started this discussion on separate forum to start accumulating complex solution, including the situation with t2 tanks. So, if you want to take a part in this process, I suggest you to do 1 of two things.
1. Add something extra to the picture.
Not like saying thing like "this is not math, you pursue personal goals", this is not smart, but like saying "Sera have no shields on t2 and they are going to encounter hoplites with stealph and massed auroras under shields", this is a good point to consider leaving Sera bots like 30% overpowered for their mass, for example, considering that sera too have good t1 tank, best t1 arty, best t1 bomber, best comm, and ok navy. Another question is should we keep it like 100% OPed.
2. Make a balance suggestion. This is the hardest part, anything else I could do by myself, but not this, this is where real gameplay expertise and experience only community is capabale of bringing in kicks in.
Like "I think we shold change this and that stat, considering this and that and keeping in mind this and that gameplay case, I think this solution is going to work".

I it easy to write critics with arguments about personalities (even assumed). But it is hard to add something extra and make some analysis, to make a good foundation of your own position. Let's keep it the second way.

[Sunny]

Zep's post on similar topic, includes some good suggestions, for reference.
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=3074&p=30463#p30463

I personally think, this is not enough, as there is nothing about buffing anything but speed for tanks.
I would suggest to keep t1 as main raiding force and keep it, with speed too, as raiding force on higher tiers.

[Krapougnak]

Why don't we just switch costs and hp between Rhino/wagner and Pillar/Riptide ?
Amphibious tanks should be less powerful and costly that their land counterparts as they are already amphibious. Rhino is never built but you see Wagners even on maps without water.