Buff LAB's: Reduce builtime

[Valki]

I suggest we reduce the builtime on LAB's from 140 to 70. This would allow a factory to produce 3 LAB's in the time it produces 1 medium tank.
(Medium tanks build time is around 270, but with factory roll-off included it won't be more than 3 LABs)

I have tested this in sandbox mode.

• 3 LABs will beat 1 tank.
• With a good engagement, 25 LABs will beat 10 tanks and 1 snoop. (5 : 2)
• With a poor engagement, 30 LABs will lose to 8 tanks and 1 snoop. (7.5 : 2)

This would make LAB's superior to other units in build-time equivalence, while maintaining the superiority of other units in mass-equivalence.

Having the LAB as a build-time superior unit would open up several interesting options that might give the LAB a bigger role in the game:

• A LAB rush becomes a powerful build, 2 factories producing LABs need 4 factories producing tanks to counter it.
  However, the high mass-drain from producing LAB's will set the LAB-player back in eco. So if he fails to do any damage, he is behind.
• Unit micro and formation management is important to getting the most out of LABs.
• In a crunch, when the enemy is close to your base, switching factories to LAB's can swing the battle in your favor.
• It is easier to overwhelm T2 units with LAB's.

[Myxir]

a single microed lab is able to beat up 2 or more strikers, i'm scared that "easy" labs turn the game into more of a starcraft style micro festival than strategic decision making, still an interesting idea...
guess it has to be tested

[nine2]

well im not sure about the idea (but im a self confessed grandpa and dont like changes of any kind) but i do think it would be awesome to reduce the build time just a little to increase lab play at the start of the game. But not by 50%

[ZLO_RD]

I really like this idea (since all faction can use labs including just defending with them), the only problem is sera, thaam is already bad against labs.

[Iszh]

Even i support this idea to reduce built time because those bots are nearly useless since t1 bomber is doing their original job times better faster easier with radar and so on.

[Exotic_Retard]

i agree that labs atm are not too great and need a buff of some sort.

however i would like to see labs being used for more than the first 3-5 mins into the game - and this buff will only help them in the first couple of minutes, only on some maps, and if you build tanks you can still defend vs them without problems in most cases.

the problem with labs as a whole is that they cant be just better for raiding - you would still not build them - they need to either:
1. be so good at raiding that you build them specifically for that purpose, rather than just sending a few tanks that you already have
2. have some use in situations other than raiding - i.e. a reason to build them to help in tank battles.

otherwise you just divert some of your spam to enemy mexes and call it a day - its just so much easier than building labs if they lose to tanks in an open fight (which they should)
this means that some simple stat buff will not be enough - you just buff the early 5 mins of lab play and then they fade into obscurity again for the rest of the game.

what this (your change) does:
-the first 5 mins become more micro intensive, and less consistent - you are more likely to lose in a few minutes due to some unlucky lab encounters - -each one becomes important and theres a fair chance you can lose that engagement, also you are more frustrated as you had to micro and still lost (it feels more like luck)
-the period where labs are useful is extended slightly, depending on the map (more open are better obv)

im not sure this makes the game more fun. so i dont want to see labs buffed to make them only good early.

instead i would like them to be useful for a longer period of time without compromising the early game in this way - for that there are a couple of options:
- give them a special ability which helps in spam combat, such as loyalist style stun on death (ahh quick everyone hide, its a suggestion which is too extreme for me to handle!)
- manipulate their stats in such a way that makes them complement t1 tanks - for example - low mass, high e cost, high dps/mass, low hp/mass, and (important) lower target priority than t1 tanks.
- as correctly noticed in this thread - build time can be used as a moderator for balancing their early game effectiveness without affecting lategame too much. this can be used in combination with the above to fine-tune labs.


im not just making these up here based on pure theory btw. i don't do suggestions like that. i have already participated in a lot of testing of labs and different solutions for them. so far this seems like the best choice we have.
hope this helps.

[RoLa]

If you want to make them useful in later game give them a special ability to dig in. To activate it does take time while you cant shoot. When digged in they cant move but are much harder to kill. They could even get a sligltly lower vision radius. So drops with labs on undefended bases are much more powerful. You can also use them as "short range pd firing wall" slowing down enemy units. They would be still outranged by anything, but they could be used as cannon fodder stopping/slowing down temporarily any incoming rush.

This ability would need some really heavy fine tuning. E.g. t3 mobile arty or other t3 units shouldn't one shot kill a whole bunch of digged in labs. But t1 tanks should'nt take ages to kill them neither.

So the taken damage should be reduced by a percentage

EDIT
Maybe there could be 2 modes one light mode giving 50% damage reduction taking 20 secs to activate and another additional heavy mode taking another 40seconds but reducing damage to 15%.

[Turinturambar]

I think this change would have a gr8 impact on high reclaim 5x5 maps where you could maybe just build some 4-6 pgen 2 landfac rush and then just spam labs (maybe even assist landfacs) what may change the meta on maps like williasons/desert arena/ambush pass significantly since you can just overrun your enemy with labs if he builds tanks. (maybe that would make these maps at least a bit fun) would be interesting 2 try it out in a mod.

[yeager]

I agree with ZLO, this could work, but then sera t1 would suck, there is no amount of buffing you can do to the Selen to make it good vs labs (gun doesn't turn) and thaam sucks harshly already, but if you can work that out I'd be all for it

[Valki]

If you want to make them useful in later game give them a special ability to dig in. [...]

I'd say that if you want LABs to be useful in the late game, you should make T2 or T3 LABs, let's call them ALABs "Advanced Light Assault Bots".

It would be very difficult to design LABs to fill both the early game and the late game role.
Let's first focus on making LABs work longer in the T1 stage.