Updated Mods for FAF and Vanilla / Steam

[Resin_Smoker]

Code: All thru this forum and the old GPG threads. Ask around if ya need help find the older posts.

Melee: Possible in a very basic sense. GPG tried it and left the functions in but i doubt you'll be able to do much that "looks" realistic.

Invisible units: Very easy to do if your just not wanting the unit(s) to be visible for an opposing faction. (aka dummy units or placeholder units) However true stealth in FA & FAF is bugged to the engine. Basicly stealth / cloaking works like what you'd initially expect but then things get weird once a unit has been detected. Example: Your stealth bomber is cloaked / radar invisible and moves in on a target to drop a few bombs then retreat. Whilst dropping the bombs the bomber is detected / chased by one or more fighters. When the bomber recloaks the fighters continue to give chase despite not being able to "see" the target they're locked on to. (no valid intel) This will continue until new orders are given to the fighters, the fighters are killed or the bomber is killed. In a nutshell, the game engines weapon scripts / targeting routines have access to intel the player does not OR the fighters weapons do not know to disengage from a cloaked target. Currently there is no known fuction or process that we have access to that would modify this behavior as all of the targeting / weapon core scripts are part of the engine. (for speed)

Now this doesnt mean I dont know of an unconventional way to force a work around...

What i have in mind involves two units, the Real-Unit and a Dummy-Unit (helper). The Real-Unit is everything you'd expect, moves, shoots, takes orders, has a hitbox, receives damage BUT is listed as non-targetable. The Helper-Unit (refered to from the point as simply the helper) is a inert unit thats "attached" via script to the Real Unit. The Helper can not be selected, has no hitbox or provides any other fuction then to allow an enemy faction to target / fire at the real-units location. (hopefully striking its hitbox) Now here is the interesting part.... When cloaked, the Real-Unit deletes the Helper which forces the attacking units to disengage. (aka no longer a valid target) Uncloaking is what your expect, the reverse of before, thus allowing the opposing factions to "see" the real units true location.

Note: The Helper should share the same basic stats as the Real Unit so when a player mouses over it shows the correct hitpoints, icon, veterancy ect.

Two issues with this however.... the cloaking is absolute and not even Omni can see thru it. The helper unit counts towards the unit count, which can stall a players build production if its surpassed.


Resin

[Franck83]

Ty resin for theses infos.

I'm really thinking about invisible units that can only be detected by special scouts units. With true invisibility, not radar sensor one.
Theses invisible units may be revealed by other units (and so targetable) if a special 'reveal' action is issued by the scout. The scout may track invisible units during patrol.

This feature allows commando attacks and give scouts a late game role. It may give a lesser opponent some chance to epic actions if is eco is bad.

[Resin_Smoker]

Thing is noone will support the idea no matter how epic your scripting. Point blank, upsetting game balance upsets the fragile skill-set that pro's has taken years to learn. Even if you change is right and most welcome it, the hardcore players will always flame you.

[Krapougnak]

Thing is noone will support the idea no matter how epic your scripting. Point blank, upsetting game balance upsets the fragile skill-set that pro's has taken years to learn. Even if you change is right and most welcome it, the hardcore players will always flame you.

You are right Resin, God knows I hate it when players only see games as a bunch of stats and APM routines (even if they are responsible for some great replays on Gyle's ).

But you forget that there is a lot of people that silently play againts the AI or even between themselves in a friendly fashion, and those people like mods even if they are not vocal about it. Forums are clearly dominated by pros or would-be pros but a lot of people play Blackops for example and other featured mods.

Trying to change the main game is very difficult but to address this silent community is easy and they will play your mod if you make it available.

I for one really enjoyed your (and Domino's) work and I'm still using it in my personal mod, you are missed.

PS: and modding is not dead look at Brewlan mod and more recently The Dairy Farm mod with some very interesting units !

[Franck83]

Yes, you're right Kra. Trying to please everybody and pro is a lost battle. Some mods are well suited for fun and casual players.

However some balanced and coherent mechanics (like in narrow pro games) are always a good goal to achieve when developping a mod. I think that Resin want to prevent me from desillusion. And i ty him for this. He has year of FA dev experience, and his work and the work of other will still give inspiration for new modders. Brewlan mod is a real good mod (especially T2 walls may have been introduced in the base game as there were in total annihilation).

Maybe one rule when developping mods is just having fun developping, fun sharing and do not make it in hoping gratefullness.

[Franck83]

upsetting game balance upsets the fragile skill-set that pro's has taken years to learn

You give the key Resin. It is understandable to not break the secret recipe of pro strategies. Because all is about time invest and feeling at he end. We need to find the narrow spot when creativity is possible and make it working in the whole balance.

A pro gamer will not play a mod that broke all his secret technics or skills. I understand it. But mods should offer, new ways, new solutions, new options and at the same time keep the base mechanics.

[Resin_Smoker]

Thing is noone will support the idea no matter how epic your scripting. Point blank, upsetting game balance upsets the fragile skill-set that pro's has taken years to learn. Even if you change is right and most welcome it, the hardcore players will always flame you.

You are right Resin, God knows I hate it when players only see games as a bunch of stats and APM routines (even if they are responsible for some great replays on Gyle's ).

But you forget that there is a lot of people that silently play againts the AI or even between themselves in a friendly fashion, and those people like mods even if they are not vocal about it. Forums are clearly dominated by pros or would-be pros but a lot of people play Blackops for example and other featured mods.

Trying to change the main game is very difficult but to address this silent community is easy and they will play your mod if you make it available.

I for one really enjoyed your (and Domino's) work and I'm still using it in my personal mod, you are missed.

PS: and modding is not dead look at Brewlan mod and more recently The Dairy Farm mod with some interesting units !

What you fail to realize is that anything released is only usable so long as FAF doesn't update again. This is why direct changes need to be included into FAF, thus providing a common set of modding tools that everyone can use. Otherwise, its just a complete mess as everyone scripts to their own tune, thus ensuring ZERO compatibility with anything else. This is largely why mods such as Black-Op's have survived so long... Very little of the games script(s) were altered being that BO is pretty much a Unit only mod. Now while FAF updates are all fine and dandy for Units-mods or even UI-mods (which have even less to do with the SIM) it pretty much breaks everything else. Just look at all the mods released years ago, that few if any work today. The original authors don't want to deal with it as its an absolute guarantee it will happen again. Even then there's extreme cross compatibility issues with other mods, such that even if each mod plays nice with FAF, they'll crash each other / de-sync... It's enough where after several years of this BS, anyone would just say f@rk-it and walk away.

So yeah, I gave my permission for him to work on / with 4DC but I'm not going to hold a candle that anything will ever come of it. Maybe he'll learn something of Lua, modeling and animations. That's alright and the best I can hope for really.

Now as for the "Pro's"... they pretty much set the communities feel and tone. This is often the first perception new players have when they try FAF for the first time. Hence, it's very difficult to attract players to mods, especially when modded games are not ranked. (least as far as I know of) Noone wants to try it as it's not seen as being "cool" with the seasoned community. Hell, I cant remember the last time someone of "skill" played 4DC / 4th-D and made a cast, do you? (Or another mod other then BO)

Resin

[Tanksy]

@Tanksy,

This is not easy to explain

FAF has several bugfixes and enhancements compared to the vanilla/steam game.

...

You can start the FAF gameversion directly without starting the FAforever Lobby by clicking the executeable:

C:\ProgramData\FAForever\bin\ForgedAlliance.exe

But you can't use this for steam, because FAF does not change any original files.

...

So FAF uses a mod to patch the game? Or is it changes to the exe and gamedata, which won't work with steam.

I'm asking this because I'd quite like to use or at least take a look at how FAF has fixed some things with the game and apply it to my own, but the people I play with would prefer to not download FAF and we just stick to playing over Steam. The NukeForall sounds like a clever fix.

[Krapougnak]

What you fail to realize is that anything released is only usable so long as FAF doesn't update again. This is why direct changes need to be included into FAF, thus providing a common set of modding tools that everyone can use. Otherwise, its just a complete mess as everyone scripts to their own tune, thus ensuring ZERO compatibility with anything else. This is largely why mods such as Black-Op's have survived so long... Very little of the games script(s) were altered being that BO is pretty much a Unit only mod. Now while FAF updates are all fine and dandy for Units-mods or even UI-mods (which have even less to do with the SIM) it pretty much breaks everything else. Just look at all the mods released years ago, that few if any work today. The original authors don't want to deal with it as its an absolute guarantee it will happen again. Even then there's extreme cross compatibility issues with other mods, such that even if each mod plays nice with FAF, they'll crash each other / de-sync... It's enough where after several years of this BS, anyone would just say f@rk-it and walk away.

So yeah, I gave my permission for him to work on / with 4DC but I'm not going to hold a candle that anything will ever come of it. Maybe he'll learn something of Lua, modelling and animations. That's alright and the best I can hope for really.

Now as for the "Pro's"... they pretty much set the communities feel and tone. This is often the first perception new players have when they try FAF for the first time. Hence, it's very difficult to attract players to mods, especially when modded games are not ranked. (least as far as I know of) None wants to try it as it's not seen as being "cool" with the seasoned community. Hell, I cant remember the last time someone of "skill" played 4DC / 4th-D and made a cast, do you? (Or another mod other then BO)

Resin

Yes you are right and now I see more clearly what you meant. But there is a solution, even if imperfect, to integrate the FAF mod developers team by participating in their GitHub.

Recent FAF patches were implemented that did not receive pros approval and to be honest FAF introduced a lot of changes (engie mod, spread attack, area reclaim, T3 mobile anti-air etc...) that the APM Gurus were against because it "detracted from the strategic aspects of the game"(BS). Of course it is difficult to introduce lots of radical changes but if you garner sufficient interest in the forums and/or if you have a good relationship with the developers you can convince them and implement some of them.

And yes, the pros may dominate the casting community but a lot of more casual players use mods and/or play against the AI. Your mod(s) may not receive the media attention you were looking for or hoping for but they are played and make someone happy somewhere. I myself have done a very detailed map that took me nearly a year to finish (20x20 with lots of decals) I think it has been played only once or twice by pros but it has more than 300 plays in total nothing fantastic for the amount of work/time I put into it. But I'm just happy I managed to do it and learn a lot in the process and that some people there are playing it and probably enjoying it.

You and Domino have done a fantastic job on SCFA you should be proud of yourselves and today there are people, like myself, still enjoying and playing with your creations, that says a lot.

K.

[Tanksy]

I fail to understand why "other people seeing your mod" is such a big deal to some people. Mods aren't some product you're shipping to store shelves, they're a labour of love for the game and should be something that the mod author wants to see in the game. Why care what other people think about your personal changes?