LOUD AI & Game Speed Improvement Project

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Re: LOUD AI & Game Speed Improvement Project

Postby LillyOmegaWolf » 24 Nov 2017, 05:22

We see it as early as about 20 mins into a game.
He got it with both Cybran and UEF on a variety of maps but some, it works fine with.
We're probably going to have a game of it tonight, so if it lags I can see what I can pull from it.
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Re: LOUD AI & Game Speed Improvement Project

Postby LillyOmegaWolf » 30 Nov 2017, 04:39

Whats up with the latest update?

It feels like theres no more boost to having the Resource Rich on... :cry:

Has the resource rich mod had its values lowered or has a mistake been made? If they have been lowered, why?
This has completely changed the power side of the game for me and my friends as we now are stuck on less shields and more power generators just to keep things rolling.
Its been noticed that the game seems to be playing a little slower thanks to this. Paragon used to give 225 mass. but now its only giving 180. With Resource Rich as it was in vanilla that value would be a lot higher..

The 1.5x it was on was fine. I felt it was great to play and gave a nice experience. I could manage to make it past 2k mass per second most games and that makes the end game crazy fun, especially in the games where the AI would also be building a ton of exp units too. The lowered value its on now makes It feel like Resource rich is turned off... Makes me want to be able to manually re add the original x2 mod as that made my first LOUD games so much fun and crazy fast compared to what its at now.

Having cheaper units is okay, but isn't the point of the mod in my mind. Also, less build times means nothing if you don't have the mass and power to make it happen. If the Resource rich mod is gonna get nerfed into the ground, can it please be called something else so I can manually add the original again? That was easy for me to to do and also gave the resources mean nothing mod which was useful for the times I wanted to just quickly tweak a template.
I don't like where its at right now.

I know theres the whole balancing thing and having boosted resources throws things around somewhat. But for me, I play the game with Resource Rich and tons of experimental added to it for fun first and foremost and with an eye for balance second.
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Re: LOUD AI & Game Speed Improvement Project

Postby Sprouto » 30 Nov 2017, 06:25

I can't speak towards the Resource Rich mod. I know there has been some discussion about it, but at present, it's something that HtKatzmarek has worked on, so perhaps he can give you a proper answer. All I can tell you is that it doesn't translate well to the AI, that is, he's not built to take proper advantage of it. LOUD needs to be alerted to it's presence, and then I can make him adapt his rules to the situation.

With respect to you noticing the game being a little slower, I need to ask if you are playing on Water based maps or not ? The new naval framework will most certainly have a performance impact from previous versions, so I'm wondering if that's what you're seeing.

Anyhow, let me know, and I'm sure HTKatzmarek will respond about the Resource Rich settings in short order.
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Re: LOUD AI & Game Speed Improvement Project

Postby Janus » 30 Nov 2017, 07:28

@LillyOmegaWolf

I noticed the same so I looked.
Man is gameplay SLOW! without it.
Doing anything takes forever.

Current setup is different than I expected.
Resource upgrade is 1.2, or a 20% boost.
However, build time/resource is 0.80, or about 20% reduction.

I know it works out to 1.5, just like the first built in resourcerich for loud, but it plays different to me.

I am considering making another mod and calling it 'doubledip' to avoid confusion.
Which would naturally double the metal and power generated.

I am also considering dropping LOUD all together as well.
While the framerate is better, the play is just not the same.

In the original game, you could play with different styles and be fine.
LOUD however, seems focused on just one vision.

There is nothing wrong with that, but it just not as much fun to play.
I can not point to any one thing that breaks the play for me, it is just an over all feeling.

For instance, I personally dislike having lots of subcommanders, yet in LOUD you need them.
They are not just a help, but are now critical to end game.
None of the heavy stuff can be made by anything else.
An annoyance, but not critical.

The square shields, I hate them.
It is likely just me, but I do not get along with them.
I make use of layered shielding, especially for withstanding artillery.
For which I use the nuclear repulse shields, but they die wrong and leave blocking wreckage under LOUD.
However, there is no way to layer the square shields because they are all flat and the tops are at the same level.
So when one is hit, they are all hit.
They hold, then they all go down at the same time.
The layered shields are ablative, and can still be taken down, but it has to be worked for.

"Command ping initiated." or something like that, with big glowing arrows all the time, is frustrating and distracting.

The list goes on.

On the upside, the lack of pointless and distracting animation is great.
The frame rate is great.
The lack of late game crawl is wonderful.
I like how many fewer sounds most things make, except for those times when activation sounds just won't stop.

However, the other day one of the AIs decided the best way to deal with my experimentals, was to nuke them as they approached its perimeter.
Not my base, just the experimentals as they approached its base.

Over all it is a great job of fixing shortcomings in the original game.
However, in my personal and non constant player opinion, some things are to focused, and other are to narrowing.

I play for fun and distraction, and the way LOUD is going, it just isn't doing as well as it used to.
It could also be me being picky, or my wants changing.

Still a well done MOD though, and definitely worth continuing work on.


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Re: LOUD AI & Game Speed Improvement Project

Postby HTKatzmarek » 30 Nov 2017, 22:04

Janus is correct regarding the current state of the Resource Rich mod. I've set the values to 1.2 for resources, and .8 for build time. This was done because, as Sprouto pointed out, the AI currently does not handle anything more well, as it's not setup to use that level of resource properly.

I can see where different values for different play styles would be useful. I'll talk with Sprouto about adding a selection into the UI for the amount of Resource Rich bonus you'd like to have in a particular game. Assuming this can be done, we can have 5% increments from 0 to 50%, allowing people to select their preference based on play style.

I do need to point out, that if this is added, the AI will still have to be updated to be made aware of any bonus more than about 25%.

Would this make sense to everyone?
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Re: LOUD AI & Game Speed Improvement Project

Postby HTKatzmarek » 30 Nov 2017, 22:16

@Janus
The square shields were not designed to be 'layered', as they are meant to be used with a cover of 'regular' shields, and when that cover drops, the square shield is there to stop artillery until your 'regular' shields come back up. It's been a difficult job to balance the square shields with the T4 artillery, as with too much shielding, the T4 artillery becomes useless to build given it's cost, and the base becomes bullet-proof. We tried to make both the square shield and T4 artillery viable units to build in the end game, and this was based upon many games and many player's point of view.
I understand that not everyone will think this balance is 'perfect', but so far it's been a good compromise for most players.

With regards to sub-commanders, T4 was restricted to only T4 commanders and subcommanders to make the game more strategic. It stretches out the time before you can start the 'big' projects, to help make sure nobody starts a game-ending project right at the beginning of the game, and rushes to use it before we reach that stage of the game. This helps prevent someone that is being protected by their team mates from having a nuke or T4 artillery at about the 30 minute mark, effectively ending the game.

Comments welcome!
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Re: LOUD AI & Game Speed Improvement Project

Postby Sprouto » 01 Dec 2017, 01:31

S! all

Good points H.

The 'square' or 'siege' shield was not designed as a replacement for regular shields. In fact, it is our intention to turn it into an 'artillery' shield only, as the basic code provides for this option. First however, we need to insure that the projectile database is correctly coded to identify 'artillery' projectiles as such before we can implement that. To promote 'layering', we set the square shield to sit just under the height of the traditional shields, so that, as H pointed out, they can layer effectively in conjunction WITH the square shield, making a very resilient shield 'matrix' that can withstand a considerable pounding, even by multiple artillery pieces.

One of the stated goals of the LOUD project was to re-position the pace of the game so that everything has value. Moving the experimentals out to the realm of the subcommanders only was an important piece of that pacing, and it increased the value of the early game dramatically. Now, we understand that's not everyone's thing, but it was our goal, and it has worked out well in that regard - expanding nicely upon both the tactical and operational levels, and allowing the game to 'breathe' on the larger maps.

I do think that H's suggestion that we allow the Resource Rich mod to add additional settings to the lobby will satisfy everyone's need. Additionally, alerting LOUD to the presence of the mod, and adjusting his behaviors accordingly will allow players to enjoy those options they desire, without sabotaging the AI as a result.

Having said all of the above, I'm not expecting to start working on it in any immediate future. At present, the focus is upon v5.0 which will introduce a broader naval and amphibious focus for LOUD and increase his effectiveness in those situations. Once that is released, we'll start adding some new work to the docket.

As always - any and all comments are appreciated.
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Re: LOUD AI & Game Speed Improvement Project

Postby Coppice » 01 Dec 2017, 19:46

Hey there,
I havent read the hole thing here but I got some bug which seems to come from Seraphim Anti-air (the mobile ones): There are some red lines going into the sky if you zoom in near enough, I thought it could probably be the lines where they shot but I dont know. I was using BlackopsUnleashed mod besides some of the mods that came with LOUD. I havent yet tried to reproduce it(as i never play Seraphim) but is this a known issue that comes with some extern mods? If so it would be cool if you could tell me :) ps. sry for bad english^^
2. Is it possible to play it with FAF? Because I'm not seeing any map and cant change anything within options :( (i own the steam version of supcom)
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Re: LOUD AI & Game Speed Improvement Project

Postby Sprouto » 01 Dec 2017, 20:13

Greetings Coppice !

That issue will be resolved in today's patch.

Unfortunately, the LOUD project is not compatible with FAF at this time. This is why our installer allows you to switch between your original installation (Steam/FAF) or LOUD with as little trouble as is possible.
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Re: LOUD AI & Game Speed Improvement Project

Postby Coppice » 02 Dec 2017, 01:41

Great thanks :) is it possible then to play this mod onlinr with friends? Or does it only support LAN?
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