Skipping early Land as Cybran?

[Wendek]

Hello,

I'm a future new player, currently enjoying FA's standard campaign... and I may decide to try my hand at multiplayer when I finish it. (that would remind me of my Ground Control II days, the last RTS where I played multi :p I am not really a multiplayer person most of the time)
Now I know that playing vs AI (and especially a scripted campaign) is really different than playing against humans, so I'm trying to find a strategy that fits me and is at least half-decent. And I was wondering... is it possible to skip land units for the first part of the game? (that is, not even build a land factory at the start) I tend to dislike ground units, and honestly apart from the mobile stealth generator and maybe mobile AA I do not see the point of Ground units for Cybrans, except of course the lovely spider and Loyalists to f*** up potential Colossi. (also, I don't include the Megalith in the "ground units" part)

So, I could have a bunch of Jesters for anti-unit/defense and raiding, interceptors to kill scouts and counter enemy air (which would logically be in much smaller numbers than my own airforce), bombers to wreck havoc on anything too packed or simply destroy extractors.

I realize that as time goes by the opponent could start massing anti-air and I'd have to diversify my forces (assuming the game isn't over already, from reading some posts I've gotten the impression that games can be quite short), which is where I'd start using the Navy because I really like Salems. But perhaps on some maps there's no water so I'd have to accept using land units some way or another, maybe a group of arties protected by the "main" army, aka the airforce.


So... does this make sense or is it completely retarded? I still lack practice on some things because in single-player, I mostly turtle (AI almost always sends the same "raiding groups" so turtling works nicely, besides you're kinda forced to turtle since AI already has a huge base while you start with nothing most of the time, so raiding won't work), tech up then roll over the enemy with a mix of Soul Rippers and Monkeylords (+ interceptors for air support, and strategic bombers for some big targets), with Salems if there's water (and cruisers for support, though the Salems often end up on their cute little legs so the cruisers don't have much to support anymore at that point). Basically I do not really play early-game so I am bad at judging how effective early-game units can be. For instance, perhaps I'm relying too much on the Jester? Also power is definitely going to be an issue, but not mass (which means less susceptibility to raids). The question then being : is it a crippling issue or one that can be overcome?

Thanks in advance. Also sorry if some of you are parentheses-ophobic, I can't help using those. :p I know I'll try this in some single-player skirmishes first anyway, but figured a discussion couldn't hurt. And the opinion of experimented players is always useful, for instance perhaps the idea makes sense but I will fumble with my execution and end up thinking that it wasn't viable when it can be in the right situation, etc.

[Exotic_Retard]

il leave this to the pros, but id first like to point out that on ladder maps (10x10 or 5x5 ususally) having land is essential and ensures map control.
also jesters cost 200 mass and 5000 energy, so far too expensive to spam early game.

[da_monstr]

I am no pro, but still....
Early air is expensive, especially jesters. And they are easily countered by t1 mobile as, and static would absolutely murder them. And cybran bombers are not the best, you would be really open to potential raids. And once your opponent gets T2 land, flak would easily kill any air.

[CrayzyNath]

On the small 1v1 maps you have to rely on your groundforce. Air is just to unrelieable. Intis can't shoot ground, and you have to be very careful that you dont lose all you airforce to flak, something that happens very fast. as soon as you opponent reaches t2 you have lost if you dont build any land, because of t2 flak and t2 units.
also, air is very expensive, you need much power to produce it constantly and dont underestimate the masscosts: Jesters and bomber are very heavy on mass and are easily countered by flak or intis.
You would have to rush a first bomber/jester to raid you opponent, but after you initial mass you dont have any more and it would just take way too long.
Maybe it could work vs low rated players, but not against someone with experience.

[ZLO_RD]

you can do that against aeon cause you can kill auroras with jesters (or at least kill spirits and aeon most likely retreat)
you can do that against cybran cause their t1 mobile aa is like 130 hp or so and tank have not highest hp...
it is harder against sera/uef cause it takes much more time to just kill uef engyneer (150 hp) or uef tank (300 hp) compared to other factions tanks and engies, and uef t1 mobile aa have most dps and seem to have good muzzle velocity

sera can just go second air -> bomber and bomber will arrive earlyer and can do much damage and can try block air fac

but also cyb t2 have rhinos wich are great against t1, against sera may have to use hoplites because sera t2 bots > rhinos

but also you will have to micro your jesters perfectly and then micro your t2 units, cause you not allowed to loose any of them to some random arty shots...
and ofc as always everything depends on map...

[Ceneraii]

Well there is nothing wrong with an early air-heavy approach, especially for cybran. However, there are some things to consider; you will be extremely vulnerable to early raiding which can end up being crippling if you can't do anything about it. If your early bombers or jesters get countered thats a big investment gone up in smoke, as well as mass donation for your enemy. Especially on 5x5 maps I think this tactic will cripple you. Also you would need to practice your airmicro alot for it to be effective and cybran hoverbombing is not the best. There is a good video by ra_zlo on youtube where he goes almost full air, you could take some pointers from that.

Now one thing I'd like to address; namely your opinion of cybran land. It's actually extremely good. Cloaked moles make for awesome visual scouts, especially at lower levels of play. Mantis are fast which is good for both offense and defense. Medusa's are absolutely amazing and really start to shine at the t2 stage of the game. Rhinos are amazing tanks and when paired with medusa will wreck most t2 armies, hoplites can kite everything all day long. Cybran mml's break firebases faster than you can say reclaim and lets not forget the firebeetles always ready to punish unprotected eco via stealth drop. Bricks are nearly unstoppable and trebuchets will decimate whatever you want with their massive aoe.

But back to the point; there are some other disadvantages for skipping land entirely like the roll-off time of engies from air factory (slows down your expansion) and it's usually a lot easier to get massive landspam going than it is to get airspam going. For airspam you need power and mass, while for landspam it's mostly just mass.

The advantages are of course also there, if you can keep air control cybran air-to-ground is pretty wicked and it's something most people will not expect. You can also scout very early (giving away that you are building air though!) and quickly start countering whatever your opponent is doing.

But if you are truly in love with air, my personal suggestion would be to go second air instead of first. You can still raid with land units early, get plenty of engies up and most importantly set yourself up to not stall or have to choose between building engies or your air force! Early t2 air can be quite devastating as well if you can master it and kill your opponents power (seriously, they hate that).

Link to the video i mentioned: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raSEkh0lp8w

Hope this helps!

[ZLO_RD]

Well there are two ways... you can go very heavy t1 air with no land at all or just couple tanks, or you go with some land but then win air and get fast t2 air and raid with it..

but in both situations you can be in bad position if enemy identifyes that you have only air and makes enought AA
or he can switch to massive t1 interceptor spam and just win air from you and you instaloose
pretty much like here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcFZlwglvFU i lost air when i went for pretty heavy air play,
then i just lost faith xD

[Wendek]

Interesting, thanks everyone for your answers.
For Ceneraii : I guess I phrased my post (very) badly. I know that Cybran land is not "weak" per se or at least not more than the rest, I just don't like it, for several reasons. In fact I pretty much dislike ground units for every faction. I find them annoying/clunky to control when they're too numerous, and it seems like they almost always have to be in huge swarms to be effective except very early game. They're also too easy to destroy lategame by air experimentals (oh god the carnage when you send a Soul Ripper on some group of bots, arties or even AA...) or even nukes (though I suppose most games don't go that far, but if they do you have a higher chance of hitting an army instead of a likely-defended base). Maybe I'm just terrible at micro-ing, well in fact that's very likely. :p But in every game, I've always prefered the "quality over quantity" approach, even if in SupCom no matter what you do you'll still need rather large quantities. But at least air, being "stronger" but more expensive, allows me to keep part of that playstyle.

I do agree that building a land factory for the very early game might still be better though. I did notice that annoying thing where engineers have to descend from the platform, losing valuable time in the process. Also air units take much longer to build so indeed in the case of a very early raid I may get fucked badly. I guess the end choice will be something like, either pure air and use fixed defenses (t1 arties might get annoying, especially aeon), either land for the very beginning and then switch to air as soon as the base is more or less operational.

And thanks for that youtube link, I'll try to fight my squirrel-like attention span and watch it.


I think I'll get an opportunity to try this in skirmishes against the AI tomorrow (to get an idea of what I can do without getting energy or mass-starved), then will try the Steam ladder. I know there are differences between FAF and Vanilla FA, but right now I'm still using Vanilla because I think the Steam ladder will be slightly lower-level (there are probably a few people like me who got the game with the -75% sale last week, although I had played it a bit a few years ago). I know that whole rhetoric about fighting people who are better blah blah blah, but seeing as I'll be trying something unorthodox, I'd rather test the waters against people of my skill level first. I do intend to switch to FAF soon enough, don't worry, there's a reason I'm on these boards and not generic ones. Plus people seem nice and newb-accepting here, that's a healthy change for someone who played some hundreds of hours of League of Legends. :p

[SomeoneAUS]

Tactic is not standard therefore you may find success against lower rated players who don't know how to counter or just run a standard build order.

As you get to higher levels of play you will get scouted early. Your slower start will be punished by rapid expansion from your enemy and early raids
AA spam will cause your air to just be a mass donation and they will proceed to walk over you with a land army to which you have no counter.

Supcom is much like a game of chess. You counter your opponents moves. Air has the advantage of mobility and the disadvantage of being easy to counter. Its thus generally better suited to pick off high value targets rather than as a complete strategy.

[ax0lotl]

I'm also just an average player, but here's some thoughts:

It sounds like you prefer mid/late game over early game. With some team maps you can be defensive in the beginning and eco and tech up early. In 1v1 that mostly is not an option.

Navy is relatively expensive. On some maps t2 navy will win it for you, but you need to survive until then.

A big difference between playing against AI and humans, is that AI keeps sending units against your point defenses. Humans will try something else.

Another air-heavy game by ZLO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Mdvpg-ZHdc
He is an exceptional player though.

So skipping Cybran t1 land, I think mostly would not work. But a heavy air force can be very devastating. For instance, if there was nearly no airplay so you don't have a lot of anti-air, and suddenly your opponent comes with a group of jesters that he can defend with interceptors, then you are in trouble.